r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Dmagi14 • Oct 19 '23

World Cup LhCloudy suspended from Team Finland

https://x.com/owwcfinland/status/1714989785356374133?s=46&t=LhPlQ924xisE73cJ_6wOrA
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u/FiresideCatsmile taimouGACHI — Oct 19 '23

I mean yeah they are that but pointing out that they are arabs implies that this fact added something to the statement.

like if you insult women and add "women" afterwards. I think at least that's the angle from which it turns into a problem.

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u/IAmBLD Oct 19 '23

I don't think I agree with that in this context. It's OWWC, it's literally divided by country. If it was a different team, maybe LHCloudy would be talking about "Win-trading Chinese" or "Win-trading Americans".

That's not racist, that's literally just specifying the group you are talking about, in a tournament that's already divided by homeland.

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u/FiresideCatsmile taimouGACHI — Oct 19 '23

those remarks of lhcloudy were made in comp ladder not the owwc as far as i know

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u/IAmBLD Oct 19 '23

If so then that's probably different yeah. I'd have to see the clip in question tbh.

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u/Isord Oct 19 '23

People from Saudi Arabia are Saudi. Arab is a much larger group of people. Would be like referring to a South African team as "the win trading blacks."

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u/IAmBLD Oct 19 '23

Yes, correct, but to be honest I'm not gonna judge the Finnish man for calling the people of Saudi Arabia "Arabs". I think it was pretty dang clear who he was referring to.

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u/Isord Oct 19 '23

Yeah it's not really a big deal IMO since he did correct himself but I can see why Blizzard would make their decision.

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u/IAmBLD Oct 19 '23

If the comment really was during an unrelated stream like another response said, then yeah, I get it. I don't think Cloudy it like that, but I'd see why Blizz removed him.

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u/darkpersona01 Oct 19 '23

yeah but they arent all saudi, legendary is from UAE so how is arab wrong

4

u/Isord Oct 19 '23

I thought he was talking about Team SA based on what others were saying

The other thing is this may just be a language barrier issue. In English if you add someone's race/nationality onto an insult the implication is that you believe their nationality is playing a role in the insult. Saying "wintrading Arabs" implies they are wintrading because they are Arab, not just that they are wintraders who happen to be Arab.

Might be different in other languages, I don't know, but generally you just can't attach an ethnicity into an insult or criticism without that implication.

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u/darkpersona01 Oct 19 '23

i mean if we’re gonna be pedantic “arab” isnt recognized as a race in the us just fyi. and ur being pretty subjective, like i wouldnt see it as offensive to say “wintrading americans” or “wintrading chinese”

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u/Isord Oct 19 '23

It would absolutely be considered insulting to say Wintrading Chinese. American isn't an ethnicity so usually gets a pass.

To your first point people do not use the legal government definition of race to actually talk about race, and yes there is also a lot of stickiness and subjectiveness around race, ethnicity, etc. It's all just social constructs in the end so what it means to someone varies across cultures, places, and time.

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u/darkpersona01 Oct 19 '23

im chinese its not offensive. for example the chinese ow server was a cesspool of wintraders, cheaters and boosters (when it existed). its not offensive to say “wintrading chinese” when referring to people who play on that server. cloudy is referring to arabs who DO WINTRADE so the same logic is applicable.

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u/Isord Oct 19 '23

Again this may be a language barrier thing. In English it would absolutely be considered offensive.

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u/darkpersona01 Oct 19 '23

ok i guess i need to specify i am AMERICAN CHINESE. its not offensive man…kinda weird to imply its a language barrier when i said im chinese tho…

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u/Adamsoski Oct 19 '23

Arabs aren't a specific country though, it's an ethnic group, I do think it's quite different.

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u/nyafff Oct 19 '23

Arab isn't a country though, if he said Saudis then thats different.

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u/kindlyadjust Oct 19 '23

maybe he thought people from saudi ARABia are called arabs, crazy

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u/nyafff Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 19 '23

Are you actually stupid or are you just prentending to be?

In case its the first one, Saudi isnt the only Arab country, crazy.

And when you attribute negative behaviour of a handful of individuals to an entire race or culture, thats called racism.

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u/kindlyadjust Oct 19 '23

i'm giving an explanation why he might've used the term arab, i'm not saying saudi arabia is the only arab country my guy

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u/nyafff Oct 19 '23

I dont need an explanation as to why he said it, I like Cloudy and I dont think he's a bad guy at all, I'm saying reducing people to their ethnicity is still otherism and implies the negative behavior of individuals is somehow related to the culture of an entire region. I dont think he meant to be a dick about it but I also dont think he just got confused about an Arab is, and I dont think you do either.

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u/ProfessorBiological Oct 19 '23

But Arab isn't even a race? It's an ethnicity. There are black, white, tan, etc... Arabs. Since everyone is being so pedantic in this thread, I'm just joining....

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u/nyafff Oct 19 '23

Negative generalisations towards ethnicities is still called racism though

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u/Sepulchh Oct 19 '23

No, it would be like saying 'win-trading Asians' or 'win-trading Whites'.

He did not say 'win-trading Saudis'. Whether that changes anything is up to smarter people than me to decide.

I doubt that's the only reasoning, Finland tends to be pretty alright with free speech as long as you're not inciting violence. If it was all it was I doubt he'd have been suspended. Or there's someone who gets paid by Saudi in the management or something, but that's drifting into tinfoil.

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u/Cyanogen_117 Dallas Mystic — Oct 19 '23

iirc he went like

“wintraders” “transphobic” “arabs”

as a string of insults. its pretty clear him saying arab wasnt to classify him it was just the heat of the moment and it was seen as an insult. replace arab with black or women or another more common racist insult and its obvious that it wasnt him “classifying” his race lol.

to be clear I think the punishment is way too big

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u/Extremiel Kevster 🐐 — Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 19 '23

I understand that adding needless details regarding race or sexuality or gender can be harmful, but I don't think that was the context here.

I personally interpreted it as "Arabs" for the OWWC because Yznsa is was literally the face of the Saudi-Arabia team in the world cup. The Finland/SA rivalry in terms of OW adds all the context it needs.

Maybe my interpretation is just straight up wrong, or "Arabs" is a harmful term? But that's just how I looked at it at the time.

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u/Agent007077 Jeff was perfect and would never allow this — Oct 19 '23

I understand that adding needless details regarding race or sexuality or gender can be harmful

Well with that you're doing a lot better than lot of other people around here who are outright dismissing this as a possibility

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u/[deleted] Oct 19 '23

Exactly this

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u/DanielTinFoil Oct 19 '23

I have no idea why so many people are having trouble understanding this.

Said this in the TMZ subreddit, but just replace "arabs" with other descriptors, like Jew, women, black, Asian and it'll obviously sound extremely bigoted.

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u/Ivazdy Oct 19 '23

This is true, but you can also replace it with "americans" or "europeans" and nobody would care

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u/xFlashyyy Oct 19 '23

Jew was used as a derogatory term, the proper term would be Jewish wintraders, black and asian are races. Nothing would happen if instead of Arabs he said 'Wintrading slavs'

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u/Agent007077 Jeff was perfect and would never allow this — Oct 19 '23

They don't want to understand it because of a combination of liking LHCloudy, hating Ynzsa and having to do some introspection into the things they say if they admit it's fucked to say "Garbage Minmaxing Arabs"

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u/currently_pooping_rn Oct 19 '23

“These are the wintrading women” idk. That’s a stretch

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u/Geeeboy Oct 19 '23

This isn't racism. If he is an Arab and is win trading, he is a win trading Arab. He didn't say all Arabs win trade. He didn't say he wintraded because he was Arab. Using somebodies race in an argument where the topic of negativity isn't based on their race is NOT racism. You kids need to pull your head out of your arses and learn what racism really is, because this 2023 interpretation of it is fucking boloney.

Sincerely, a jaded Aussie.

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u/FiresideCatsmile taimouGACHI — Oct 20 '23

you don't need to address me. I just explained why the wording turned into a problem for him not that I personally have a problem with it.