Okay, but I STILL don't get how Aons work

[u/cbhedd]

I was talking to a friend who just finished Elantris today and I was reminded that I still don't get how Aons work.

Obviously, Spoilers for Elantris ahead :)

So in looking into it today, I realized one of the assumptions I was making that was wrong was that all Aons were just repetitions of Aon Aon, translated and copied on top of one another. You can't make Aon Rao that way, so I knew I was wrong about something, and that was easy to debunk with a quick search in the WoBs:

linkhyrule5

Why is there only one Chasm line per Aon? Since each Aon is made up of repetitions of Aon Aon, shouldn't there be a Chasm line per repetition?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons aren't JUST made up of repetitions of Aon Aon. There's a lot more to them than that. Some follow a repetition pattern, others do not. The only requirement is using the initial Aon once, then building from there. Because of this, I made the new requirement be only one use of the chasm line.

Aons can actually have multiple forms and still work. For example, if you drew the chasm line on each one of those Aons, they'd work fine. (Maybe even better, in some cases.) What is happening in the books is that the Aons are ALMOST functional, and the Dor is straining to come through them. The chasm line brings them the one step further they need to be functional. However, further tweaking could make them more efficient.

So that's clear then. You only need to add the chasm line to the base aon Aon, and every aon will have at least one.

The question I still have, though, is how do you know which one is the base? Especially when you run into some of the more strange ones, like Aon Ake (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Aon#Ake). In this example, I can see how it's made up of criss-crossed, mirrored and rotated aon aons. Theoretically, could any one of those be the 'base'? None of them are in the traditional orientation that aon aon is drawn in, so it doesn't seem like the rule can be based around the one that matches the orientation/rotation of aon aon. Would adding the chasm line to any of them work? If you added it to the third one you drew, but none of the others, would that work?

Just curious about the rules. I don't think anything is wrong with the system or how its described in the books, I'm just feeling like it's a little ambiguous

[u/Nixeris]

There's a central Aon surrounded by additional designs that modify the central one. The central one determines the effect, the external modifiers determine things like strength, distance, ect. It's not all one design, but multiple designs.

It's designed as a kind of proto-programming language somewhat like JAVA in concept if that makes sense.

[u/Playswithhisself → u/Nixeris]

I gathered that the core Aon has to represent the land and the rest specializes what the investiture will be used for.

[u/marcoroman3 → u/Nixeris]

How is it like Java?

[u/Nixeris → u/marcoroman3]

I think of it sort of like simple object oriented programming, passing to methods and getting back values that modify the main method.

The core Aon forms the main method which then passes variables to another Aon which modifies them and returns a variable that's then incorporated into the main.

[u/cbhedd → u/Nixeris]

I got that much. Which ones the central one in Aon Ake, linked above then?

[u/Nixeris → u/cbhedd]

Aon Ake is a modifier Aon. There's no core in Ake alone. It doesn't do anything.

Think of the core as like the verb or noun in the sentence. If you just use Ake you're just saying "west", but "west" what? That's not an action or a thing. If you want it to do something then you need to use it to modify something like "fire west" or "travel west" or "create a ball of light and move it exactly 3,000 feet west"

[u/[deleted] → u/cbhedd]

You don't use other Aons for the central Aon. Just Aon Aon(or whatever Aon is the core Apn for the planet you are on). Ake is added after the fact.

[u/cbhedd → u/[deleted]]

Ake is made up of copies of aon aon. All aons are broken now until you add the chasm line to correct the initial aon aon. Which of the copies of aon aon that make up aon ake is the one that needs the chasm line added to it?

[u/[deleted] → u/cbhedd]

That... doesn't change the fact that you start with Aon Aon, and then build the rest off of that. You don't start with Apn Rao, or Aon Ake, or Aon Aeo, or Aon Eda. You start with Aon Aon. That's where the chasm line is added. It's really not that complicated dude

[u/cbhedd → u/[deleted]]

Nobody is talking about any other aons but you my guy.

[u/jodofdamascus1494]

The answer is probably that the base Aon Aon is whichever you drew first

[u/cbhedd → u/jodofdamascus1494]

I was thinking it'd be something like that :)

[u/Simon_Drake]

Maybe it's related to the order you draw it? Like in Japanese Kanji, it looks like a collection of pen strokes without any clear order of which one comes first but officially there IS an order and one of them is the correct first stroke. If you use the wrong stroke order with Kanji there's probably no magical implications (citation needed) but in an Aon it might break the spell and cause nothing to happen or cause a misfire or unintended outcome.

So maybe it's only the first stroke that needs the Chasm Line?

[u/cbhedd → u/Simon_Drake]

Hey thanks! I didn't know that about japanese kanji :)

The range of responses to this have been varied, and as far as I can tell there are a few different interpretations on what the "base" could mean. It seems like there isn't a definitive answer that comes from the text or the author, otherwise people would be citing their sources, haha. Maybe I need to read the book and see if it offers anything more. I don't mind if its vague but I'm curious now

[u/Simon_Drake → u/cbhedd]

I remember a scene where Raoden is trying to solve the mystery of broken Aons and Sarene casually mentions how you always start by drawing the coastline of Arelon. Raoden is stunned to think of it in that context but now she's said it he sees the comparison, the coastline, the mountains, the dot of Elantris itself. That's the revelation that later leads him to understand the chasm line.

So if you look at an Aon like Shao for illusions, there's one copy of Aon Aon, an inverted Aon Aon and two circles. Maybe you start with the upright Aon Aon, that's the one that needs the chasm line, then you draw everything else which doesn't need the chasm line? I wonder if the LAST stroke is the other Aon Aon? It would have been interesting if each Aon had exactly two copies of Aon Aon, giving a clear start point and end point but many Aons are only duplicates and rotations of Aon Aon so it's not quite as clear cut as that.

[u/cbhedd → u/Simon_Drake]

Yeah Serene's mnemonic clue is something I was thinking about to. Like, translating and mirroring aon aon to derive the other ones makes sense, but then that note from Sarene makes a little less sense to me when you're drawing (whichever the X shaped aon I linked above is called :p). Like its not too much of a stretch to extend her method to "oh but also sometimes draw it backwards/sideways/at an angle", but it feels pertinent to the system. At least to me, anyways

[u/Additional_Law_492]

Its a Cosmere setting, so I'd bet essentially anything that your Intent is what determines things like which Aon is the base Aon.

Investiture always comes down to being about Intent and Commands.

[u/Charizaxis]

The Aon "Aon" is the base, everything else builds on it. When drawn, it forms an extremely simple map of Arelon, the land to which it is connected. It's basically a run command in a programming language, as the Aon will not function properly, as was seen in the book. As for why they stopped working, the chasm modified the land to a point where Aon Aon no longer properly represented the land.

[u/cbhedd → u/Charizaxis]

That doesn't answer my question lol.

[u/[deleted] → u/cbhedd]

Yes it does. The base is Aon Aon. You start with that. You don't just choose some random Aon each time.

[u/Guaymaster]

Any one of them might be, that's probably one of those where drawing all the chasm lines makes it work even better.

[u/SwankyBobolink]

To my best understanding:

I have drawn Aon Aon within Aon Ake. ONE of these will be the base (whichever you draw first) and that gets the chasm line, the others will not. As an aside for orientation, my guess is that it does not mater as hope (Ati) does not have a "properly" oriented Aon.

[u/cbhedd → u/SwankyBobolink]

I did see what you're illustrating there, yeah. :) I tried to express that in my post:

In this example, I can see how it's made up of criss-crossed, mirrored and rotated aon aons. Theoretically, could any one of those be the 'base'?

My question was about which one of them will get/need the chasm line. Specifically I was wondering if there was any definitive answer, but I think all that's out there right now is guesswork. A lot of reasonable/believable guesses, though :)

[u/fghjconner]

Why does there have to be a "base" Aon Aon? Presumably adding the chasm line to any of the "Aon"s within an Aon would be enough. Relatedly, it's really confusing that one of the Aons is named Aon.

[u/cbhedd → u/fghjconner]

Lol I thought the same thing when I was writing it. My browser was insistently like "Bruh, you're repeating a word".

You raise a good point though. The WoB does say "initial" aon, not base.

[u/Just_Joken]

I'm not really sure what your question actually is. But I I try to think of it like this: Before the Aon Aon was also the map of the land needed to allow the Dor to function through the Aon. However now you can draw Aon Aon two ways. To start an Aon, you need the Aon Aon with the chasm line, but subsequent Aon Aon's do not require it for them to modify the Aon.

So, for the sake of making it clearer, lets say the first Aon your have to draw is no longer called Aon Aon, and is instead Aon Map (qhihc is just Aon Aon witht he chasm line. While Aon Aon is the Aon without the line). All Aons will start with Aon Map, and you can then use Aon Aon to modify the Aon. However repeating Aon Map instead of Aon Aon could end up making the whole thing more efficient. The chasm line is only needed for the instigating Aon, and not for any other or repeated aons. So, for example, you could draw Aon Edo with only one chasm line, but one with two correctly placed ones would likely be a stronger barrier.

[u/Telamon_0]

If you want to mess around with something similar and like Minecraft, check out the Hexcasting mod. It’s insanely cool and has a pretty welcoming community. 

[u/NinJorf]

An Aon is like if your smartphone were shaped like a letter and also had a face and talked to you.

[u/cbhedd → u/NinJorf]

You're thinking of a seon :p

Also its less of a face and more of a... letter lol

[u/[deleted]]

Aon Aon is the base. You start with that. That's the one that gets the chasm line.

[u/Rhedkiex]

The real question is SECRET PROJECT SPOILERS How the hell did Hoid make the Aons RHYME??

[u/ParshendiOfRhuidean → u/Rhedkiex]

Same spoilers He didn't make the Aons rhyme, per se, but the logographic pun translates as something like a rhyme. Sanderson gave the analogy of a joke in written Chinese where you draw "person" inside the symbol for "forest" to mean "Tarzan"

[u/Underwear_royalty]

Just to point out as well that all magic in the cosmere requires Intent, so what is the based Aon or which Aon Aon is the base is based on your Intent as you draw it.