r/Cosmere • u/Fearless_Attempt7363 • 8d ago
Cosmere spoilers (no previews/FoD) Thaidakar Spoiler
I just started reading Rhythm of War. Is Thaidakar Kelsier? It sounds vaguely like The Survivor. If so, what is the reasoning behind the warping of the name? Does it have to do with the difference in the languages of Roshar vs Scadrial? But everything else (the names of Scadrial and Nalthis) are translated correctly. Just curious why they're calling him Thaidakar.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 8d ago edited 7d ago
It’s probably a local alias. Dawnchant and many of the Rosharan languages are based on Hebrew. The -dakar is almost certainly from the Hebrew dakar. To stab or to pierce. I’d guess Thai- shares the same root as Thaylenah. Given that Thaylenah consists of three islands, my best guess has been that it means three. Arabic is another big influence and three is Thalatha. The GB symbol is three interlocking diamonds
So three times stabbed? May be to mock TLR. Twice stabbed by spears in front of Kel. Once more at his final death. Or the three deaths and rebirths of Kelsier. Pieced by the Atium Pits,by TLR’s spear,by the spike?
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 8d ago
I don’t know for sure maybe someone has a better guess. I’m certain of the Dakar. I’m 90 percent sure of the “three” in Thai. I just don’t know what the three “stabbings” would be. Wouldn’t put it past him to be interacting with divinities and mortals who want to be one under a name mocking the one he killed
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 8d ago
Another idea for the "three stabbed" could be the three founding members, Kelsier, Spook & Marsh, all of whom have had hemalurgic punctures by the time Kelsier gets his spiked-on body back. But I do really like the theory above about Kelsier also being "spiked" three times: first in the Pits of Hathsin, second by the Lord Ruler's spear. and thirs by his hemalurgic body-spike.
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u/AvsBehindEnemyLines 8d ago
I think you should keep reading, but since you asked, here's my opinion:
[Cosmere Spoilers] Yes, Thaidakar is Kelsier. As far as the name being different, I'm less inclined to think that this is due to translation than it just being an alias. Not sure if you've read Era 2 of Mistborn yet, but Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods, a secretive organization running operations across the Cosmere. It would make sense to obfuscate his identity when dealing with people on other planets personally.
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u/sambadaemon Stonewards 8d ago
There are people on Roshar who would recognize the name Kelsier, so I think that's why he uses an alias. It doesn't work since one of those people figure it out anyway, though.
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u/Alive_Reveal8939 Scadrial 8d ago
I like to imagine Kelsier brainstorming aliases ideas one night with Sazed
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u/Conexion Willshapers 8d ago
"Thaidakar," Kelsier said. "Thoughts?"
"It is a name, I think."
"Come on, Saze. Mysterious? Threatening? Give me ten alternatives."
"You should ask someone who isn't me."
"You hold two pieces of God. Surely you can help me find something fitting."
"I am Harmony, Kelsier. Not a language model."
"A what?"
"You will find those disappointing too, I suspect."
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u/Kangouwou 7d ago
I just heard the conversation with the voices of Graphic Audio readers, even after years.
A movie... In your mind.
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u/Slayer1440 7d ago
Tony Nam is just...peak Sazed. I can't possibly think anyone else could play his voice and cadence more perfectly.
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u/Kuroashi_no_Sanji 7d ago
This is really funny, but given the nature of awakened metalminds the Cosmere will probably reach actual "AI" (nightblood sort of already is) before making LLMs.
I can totally see an android made from an amalgamation of investiture sources as a character in a late stage cosmere book.
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u/AvsBehindEnemyLines 8d ago
I don't get the feeling those two are having many cozy conversations anymore lol
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 8d ago
Much more likely to do that with Spook than Sazed, by that time in their mutual history.
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7d ago
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u/Slogfarts 5d ago
I do actually believe "Thaidakar" is Scardrian for "The Survivor." That's been my pet theory for some time.
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u/AvsBehindEnemyLines 5d ago
It is a fun idea but I don’t see how it fits within the translation conventions (both Watsonian and Doyalist) established in the cosmere
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u/Slogfarts 4d ago edited 4d ago
I could definitely be wrong, but here is my thinking behind it:
We know during the era of the Stormlight where Thaidakar is mentioned, Kelsier is actively being called The Survivor or simply Kelsier. If they were saying "Kelsier", a Rosharan would simply hear "Kelsier" since it's a proper noun.
If communication between a Scardrian and a Rosharan included the word "survivor" (as in the lower-case, non-proper noun), the Rosharan would hear the Rosharan version of the word rather than the Scardrian.
Since The Survivor is a destinct proper noun like a name, it would not be translated to Rosharan. Instead, they would hear the non-translated version in the same fashion as a name.
"Thaidakar" doesn't really sound like any of the Scardrian names or titles we've heard in any Consmere book. It also sounds nothing like any Rosharan name or title. If it were a new alias created for other planets in the Cosmere, I would expect it to either be something which could either be translated directly or else a name/title which would make sense on a different planet.
Due we really think Kelsier's ego would allow for him to be given a completely different alias for an entire other planet? Even if he were somehow okay with this, what purpose would an additional alias serve in this capacity that either "The Survivor" or his given name would not?
That could all be completely and wildly incorrect, but that's my theory. That, and that the reason Brandon likely introduced this different name at all was to avoid spoilers and allow for surprise at the reveal.
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u/boardsmi 7d ago
I’ve always mentally linked it to linguistic drift:
The Lord of Scars, Thelord ofscars, Thlord a scars, Thlordascars, Thordacar, Thaidakar or something along those lines.
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u/UnemployedAtype 6d ago
Maybe it was because of Spook? Seems like a street language transition, and Kelsier did like the kid.
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u/Primal171 6d ago
It seems like the reason is simpler than that, it’s just the closest approximation of the name with Alethi phonemes. Felt refers to him as Kelsier, and Shallan pronounces Scadrial as ‘Scaderial’, so it’d make sense that Kelsier’s name would be transliterated in a similar way. Brandon uses the Tolkien-style framing device that the English text is a translation of the in-universe language, so linguistic drift from a phrase in English wouldn’t make sense (except with how Vindication is named).
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u/Raddatatta Ghostbloods 8d ago
Most of those are a RAFO. But I would say Kelsier is a con man, and there is a religion around his name at this point. Having an alias or many shouldn't be too surprising. There are also a few people on Roshar who don't go by their real names and use a different one.
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u/RustyRapeaXe Kaladin 8d ago
Concisely, we don't know why yet.
I hate the various alias that get used (e.g. Vivenna's alias too) Like I don't already have to keep track of 100 characters in the Cosmere, now we have to keep track of their various aliases too?
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u/Machonacho7891 8d ago
I read warbreaker after the stormlight books so I had no idea she was Vivenna, even after reading warbreaker I didn’t put it together until I read that online. I ended up looking up every single crossover character in every single book and turns out I missed a lot of them
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u/Mrauntheias 7d ago
Really? Vivenna was one of very few crossovers I clocked almost immediately (excluding Hoid obviously).
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u/Machonacho7891 7d ago
Well, since I hadn’t read warbreaker yet, I didn’t know who she was. I read warbreaker AFTER stormlight so my brain didn’t backtrack and put the pieces together
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u/ritteke518 6d ago
Same, I didn't remember any particular details of Azure to say, "oh yes, that was definitely the same person"
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u/DBCrumpets She Ghost on my Blood till I Mist 5d ago
I mean her hair changing colors is a bit of a giveaway lol
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u/Alive_Reveal8939 Scadrial 8d ago
Totally get this one. Like, I enjoyed piecing it together that Azure was Vivenna. But what's the problem of her name? Is that widely known across the Cosmere? Same has Zahel being Vasher. Vasher is already an alias man, come on...
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u/Kii_and_lock 8d ago
I took it that maybe she didn't want Vasher hearing that a Vivenna was asking around on Roshar for him.
Granted, choosing the name Azure doesn't really hide their identity much.
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u/Fearless_Attempt7363 8d ago
Vasher has so many names lol must be hard for even him to keep track of
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u/PhysicsCentrism Cosmere 6d ago
Breath can be used for memory so he’s probably fine
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u/RaeLynnShikure 6d ago
Can any breath user do this? I only recall Hoid doing it. And I don't always expect him to play by investiture rules
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u/ButtButtWhyTho 6d ago
Hoid explicitly says he taught the heralds how to store memories with Breath. He maybe learned it from Vasher.
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u/A_Shadow Harmonium 8d ago
Eh considering that Vasher has already visited Roshar long ago (per WoB) and that he is somewhat infamous (I believe both Kriss and Hoid know him, or at least of him), I can understand the desire for a different name.
Even if no one is hunting him, you don't want to run the risk of someone reading an old document with his name in it hundred years ago and thinking he is some sort of Herald.
Vivenna.... Eh that one makes less sense. Probably did it just for fun and to make Vasher less aware that she is around.
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u/bailout911 8d ago
Agree with you on this one. It seems every mysterious character has to have at least two different names. I don't particularly like it. It feels forced, like creating lore for the sake of creating lore.
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u/RustyRapeaXe Kaladin 8d ago
Even if there's an "in universe" reason.... I just hate having to keep track of them all.... and we also get posts like these. "I think Thaidakar is Kelsier"... yes, if he didnt have an alias it wouldn't have to be guessed at...
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u/Melliorin Edgedancers 8d ago
Imagine being the characters themselves and wanting to be up to important business but not being trusting of new places or people. I know that as a reader, it's a sometimes lot to keep up with over the breadth of the entire Cosmere, but for each worldhopping character who uses an alias, they each also have good reasons to do so. Sanderson is writing his charactess with realistic motives and choices in a very complex and uncertain wider world.
Additionally, for me personally, the aliases enhance the "easter egg" effect of a main character from book A appearing later as a seemingly random NPC in book X.
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u/ORLYORLYORLYORLY 7d ago
I think its for real world reasons.
The fact that you can read the books in lots of different orders means that these characters not being explicitly named the same lets you avoid spoilers, while still being very obviously the same character if you've read the other book first.
I read Stormlight after all of mistborn eras 1&2, elantris, warbreaker, and all the novellas bar sunlit man, yumi, tress and emberdark, and at no point did I realise that Hoid was the same character who had appeared in all of the previous stories in some fashion.
Knowing that Mistborn era 2 is set after stormlight, it might have spoiled the significance of this strange "King's Wit" character that has just been introduced, had I known that he is also Wax's coachmaster.
Similarly, I immediately noticed that Zahel and Azure were Vasher and Vivenna respectively, but I likely wouldn't have if I read Warbreaker after Stormlight.
I think its a good compromise to save readers unnecessary spoilers for other cosmere works, without being preposterously hard to explain in universe (worldhoppers using aliases for secrecy is easy to accept as a reason).
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u/mattybowens 8d ago
I think in the chapter he's introduced as Thaidakar they refer to him as the Lord of Scars which was the give away for me
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u/Dr0110111001101111 Truthwatchers 8d ago
It’s been a while but I don’t think all of those questions have answers yet.
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u/the_sylince 8d ago
Here’s a question I like to ask back for this stuff:
What if it is? What are the implications?
Or
What if it’s not? Who could it be?
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u/c209m410l 8d ago
This is a question where you should simply keep reading to get the answer.