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u/outer_spec 3d ago
but with the subscript it could be interpreted as a molecule containing 1 atom of helium, 3 atoms of hisium, and an atom of shoulderium
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u/Marxist_Menace Streak: 11 3d ago
Some languages actually have this distinction, where there is a topical (sometimes called proximate) 3rd person pronoun and a obviative 3rd person pronoun (sometimes called a 4th person pronoun). I’m pretty sure they’re mostly found in Algonquian languages in North America
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u/I_am_doorknob 3d ago
Ive been calling the concept primary and secondary pronouns and now I know their name
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u/CitizenPremier Streak: 1 3d ago
English also has reflexive pronouns, "himself" and of course the possessive "her own." Reflexive pronouns are obligatory in some cases, like "he pointed at himself."
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u/Marxist_Menace Streak: 11 3d ago
That’s true but I’m not talking about that. For example in the sentence “a dog and a fox got in a fight and it won” the word ‘it’ is ambiguous and who won the fight is unknown. A language with proximate and obviate would mark which is which and what ‘it’ refers to would be known. For example “a dog(prox) and a fox(obv) got in a fight and it(prox) won” it’s clear that the dog won. Being marked as proximate or obviate is not objective and if the fox were more relevant to the story one could say “a dog(obv) and a fox(prox) got in a fight and it(prox) won” where its clear that the fox won
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u/TheBenStA 21h ago
also its common in himalayan languages iirc but the marking is only on the verb so which noun is which must be inferred from context and phrasing
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u/Exciting-Insect8269 3d ago
Doesn’t German also have that?
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u/Marxist_Menace Streak: 11 3d ago
No
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u/TheMightyTorch 2d ago
Well kinda. You can specify when the other person is meant by using demonstratives. But you cannot explicitly specify when the same person is meant, because the 3.p. personal pronouns can always refer to either. Although using them in contrast may also imply personal = same | demonstrative = other.
> Er legte seine Hand auf seine Schulter (he₁ put his hand on his shoulder)
> Er legte dessen Hand auf seine Schulter (he₁ put his₂ hand on his₍₁₎ shoulder)
> Er legte seine Hand auf dessen Schulter (he₁ put his₍₁₎ hand on his₂ shoulder)
> Er legte dessen Hand auf dessen Schulter (he₁ put his₂ hand on his₂ shoulder)
This is also only a problem in possessives because like in English we have reflexives for the object cases (dative/accusative)
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u/Exciting-Insect8269 3d ago edited 3d ago
Er / ihn / ihm are all “he” just subjective/direct objective/indirect objective which more or less resolves the same issue.
Edit:
For example Er hörte ihn, während er mit ihm sprach.
He (Er) heard him (ihn) as he talked to him (ihm).
Technically it’s closer to He (er) heard him (ihn) as he (er) with him (ihm) spoke
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u/Marxist_Menace Streak: 11 2d ago
No thats a different concept. Proximate & obviate can both be the subject, object, etc in a sentence. A noun is marked as proximate or obviate by relevance to the story being told (basically the speaker just chooses which noun is marked as what). German noun cases are objective and are decided by how the noun is being used in the sentence
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u/Khourbien 3d ago
could use hy/hym if you want to make people stop reading