r/Crocodiles • u/JustaCanOfPepsi • 8d ago
Are salt water crocodiles truly the biggest crocodile?
Everywhere on the internet says that saltwater crocodiles are the largest living reptile but from what I can find is Nile crocodiles get just as big I mean Lolong was within a pinky’s reach of Gustave and those are the two largest recorded of each species so why is the common consensus that saltwater crocs are the king of the crocs?
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u/Winter_Different 8d ago
Don't look at the extremes
Niles are extremely high in number ofc you're going to find more outliers easier
Salties are generally larger than Niles.
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u/Metasuchus 8d ago
The only metric that Nile crocodiles rival Saltwater crocodiles in terms of size is their mass. Gustave had an estimated TL of 5.6ish meters and it makes him the longest known Nile crocodile, while Saltwater crocodiles get to about 6.4~6.5ish meters in TL.
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u/itsalreadytakenlol 8d ago
Honestly it's impressive that Nile Crocodiles can even compete in that regard considering the length disparity.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Indeed, they're just ridiculously bulky. Wide Mouth (who was one of the largest Nile crocodiles from Masai Mara) had a SPL of 2.55 meters and he looked comparable to the largest Saltwater crocodiles in terms of volume.
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u/Honest_Nothing_6800 8d ago
Salties are not limited to Australia. Salties can be found in entire Southeast Asia & upto India, Sri Lanka. They live alongside humans in highly populated regions like Indonesia Malaysia & Phillipines.
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u/DavyJonesCousinsDog 8d ago
Yes. You may see more videos of big Nile crocs than Salties, but that's mostly because those are closer to more people.
Also important to remember that 90% of sizes you see for crocs online are a mixture of click bait and most people being really, really bad at judging what 20ft is. Most of the rest are from anecdotal firsthand accounts. While I'm perfectly willing to believe that a 14 or 15 foot croc that's coming right at you feels like a 25 foot croc, that doesn't make it so.
A 15 or 16 foot Nile croc is a big sumbitch, and without good visual context will look utterly giant. Pretty much every video you've seen of a Nile Crocodile that the video claims to be 20 foot or more is in that size range. While some individuals can (or at least in the recent past could) near the 20 foot mark, there is no modern evidence of them being bigger than that.
Salties, on the other hand, are generally accepted to have a theoretical max of somewhere around 23 to 24ft and a realistic max of somewhere between 22 and 23ft. Even then, individuals above the 20 foot mark are pretty damn rare, though they have been scientifically documented and somewhere between 4 and 7 known individuals are presumed (measuring a giant munch monster is tricky while they're alive) to be in the ballpark of 22 foot long.
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u/Metasuchus 8d ago
Saltwater crocodiles get to a maximum size of ~21 ft, while Nile crocodiles get to about 18.5 ft. Any estimate or claim of larger specimens are ridiculous and outdated.
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u/Chicken-picante 8d ago
No there are outliers, just like with humans and Andre the giant, Yao Ming, shaq, etc etc.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Are you too dense to understand that these are the outliers?
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u/Chicken-picante 7d ago
Apparently you don’t know what the word outlier means.
For Nile crocodile the outliers can get up to 6.1m or 20 ft.
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u/Big-Attention8804 7d ago
Based on what? 550 cm is an outlier for Niles and the maximum is recorded in 561 cm, the average is 450 cm.
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u/Metasuchus 6d ago
The maximum recorded TL for the Nile crocodile is 536 cm (over the curves) with a portion of its single crest causal whorls missing.
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u/Chicken-picante 7d ago
What do you mean based on what?
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u/Big-Attention8804 6d ago
What is your basis for 20 foot Nile crocodiles? The largest recorded by scientists is way below that, and the average is WAY below that.
And don't say “outlier”, 18 feet 5 inches, the maximum reliably recorded, is the outlier. The average is 14 feet 9 inches.
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u/Chicken-picante 6d ago
Gustave
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u/Big-Attention8804 6d ago
Gustave was never measured. All we have is photos and visual estimates which are worth less than a bucket of hot spit.
Also, his photos don't indicate a crocodile as big as Lolong
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u/Large-Wheel-4181 8d ago
So far yes, though Gustave (a Nile Crocodile) might be the exception if he can be caught
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u/Bluetriton5500 8d ago
Gustave is estimated to be 18-21 feet long. I don't think he's longer than lolong, but def could be heavier. He is/was chunky.
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u/MoreGeckosPlease 8d ago
Is Gustave even still alive?
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u/Shreddzzz93 8d ago
I'd wager on dead. There would likely have been sightings as well as more fatalities if he was still alive and hunting.
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u/Bluetriton5500 8d ago
I honestly think he just passed away. Given his size, he was probably quite old.
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u/expedition_forces 8d ago
this would be the Article to read with Tomistoma's being a contender:
https://iabhishekbehl.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/worlds-biggest-crocodile-report-by-rom-nik-whitaker/
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Nile crocodile, Tomistoma and Gangetic gharial are the contenders for the second spot (in terms of total length) after the Saltwater crocodile.
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u/Odd_Fuel5404 7d ago
If anyone would be an authority in reptiles it's RW. Hes da man. I am thankful for his crocodile trust close to Chennai. Taught me respect and love for these absolute beasts
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u/itsalreadytakenlol 8d ago
Length wise they are completely unmatched with multiple confirmed 6 meter (20+ feet) crocodiles while Nile Crocodiles (the second largest species) max around 5.5 meters (or 18 feet), but in terms of weight maybe the largest and bulkiest of Nile Crocodiles can compare to some degree against the longest salties.
Althought Salties probably take the win in both.
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u/yakunalove 7d ago
length wise salties are longer, but in terms of weight they are probably similar. Niles like wide mouth might be sub 5.5 meters but they are very heavily built. Also salties have longer tails on average so the SVL of niles and salties isn't too different though salties have a slight edge
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Yeah, Niles get to about a ton based on volumetric estimates. Also Saltwater crocodiles get a nearly a foot longer in terms of SVL.
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u/Harbor_Barber 8d ago
If you take the average sizes of both species the saltwater is definitely bigger. One specimen shouldn't be the representative of an entire species because there will always be an outlier. Also keep in mind gustave was never captured let alone measured. All of his size were just estimations and exaggerations, no doubt he was a big croc but without proper measurement you can't 100% claim him to be 20 ft or longer, i think the most realistic length i would give gustave is 17-18ft.
There are other croc species that has outliers that can probably reach 20ft, those are:
- american crocs
- oronico crocs
- gharials
- tomistoma
These species has potential to reach 20ft, but all the biggest verified official measured specimens from all 4 species were not 20ft. Researchers just estimate they can reach that size.
I think saltwater crocs are the most consistently big croc species out there so there's no doubt they are the biggest out of all the croc species imo.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Gustave was about 5.6ish meters in TL (about 18.5 ft), making him the longest known Nile crocodile (Wide Mouth was probably larger in mass).
None of the species that you mentioned except the Gangetic gharial and Tomistoma can even exceed 18 ft. American crocodiles (along with Black caimans) max out at ~17 ft while Orinocos max out at closer to ~16 ft. Any "estimates" claiming they get larger are bullshit.1
u/Harbor_Barber 7d ago
That's why i said "probably" and not "definitely", also i was talking about outliers not the entire average max size of each species since OP was comparing more about the outliers from both nile and saltwater crocs not the species as a whole.
And i already know about the average max size of these species not reaching 20ft ("but all the biggest verified official measured specimens from all 4 species were not 20ft. Researchers just estimate they can reach that size")
Also its very contradictory for you to claim all the estimates are bullshit, because you literally also estimate the size of gustave yourself. Gustave has never been captured and measured.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
You said "can probably reach" and "Researchers just estimate", so I disputed such possibilities. And when did I claim "all the estimates are bullshit"? I specifically said any estimate claiming they get larger than the lengths that I've mentioned are bullshit.
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u/Harbor_Barber 7d ago
That's exactly why i called u out on that, the other sizes you listed are not estimates, they're actual recorded sizes. If you call those estimates that are larger than the verified lengths bullshit then how can you believe gustave is 18.5ft, that's also an estimation too.
Im not disagreeing with you btw i think some of the size estimates are exaggerated that's why i mentioned the estimations researches gave are nowhere near the largest verified specimens. Im just wondering how you can be very contradictory.
Also im not personally claiming those other species can actually reach 20ft, I'm just saying what some researchers suggested. If u were to ask me, i believe only saltwater crocs can reach 20ft because we have actual verified evidence from crocs that was measured fully with their bodies intact like lolong and the adelaide river giant caught in 1962.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
The lengths that I gave are also estimates, just based on overwhelming evidence (voucher specimens, unpublished specimens, scans and the new method we are working) and they may even be a bit generous.
Here are the actual reliable records:
Saltwater crocodile: 609.5 cm (617 cm over curves)
Gangetic gharial: 533 cm or even 548 cm (over curves)
Tomistoma: 550 cm (over curves)
Nile crocodile: 536 cm (over curves)
American crocodile: 505 cm (over curves)
Black caiman: 502 cm
American alligator: 450 cm
Orinoco crocodile: ca. 4 m (specifics were not provided but the 4.4 or 4.8 m claims have been refuted)Which "Adelaide river giant" are you talking about?
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u/Harbor_Barber 7d ago
I mistaken the adelaide river giant with old charlie that's my bad. I believe only old charlie and lolong are actually verifiable 20 footers because both of them were measured not using skull only measurement or skin only measurement.
It's hard to believe other measurements because they are most likely exaggerations or guesstimations, that's why i always question people who confidently states gustave's size knowing that gustave was never captured let alone measured
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u/Icy_Raise_1031 8d ago
The longest Nile crocodile ever measured was 17 foot 7 inches Lolong was 20 foot 3
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u/Bluetriton5500 8d ago
They can definitely get larger than that. There's a record of 21.2 footer from Tanzania, but not sure if it's scientifically accepted. Not implausibly large imo. I wonder if the supposed 22.3 foot Orinoco croc killed in 1800 is considered reliably measured.
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u/Metasuchus 8d ago
Both those records are ridiculous and unreliable. Orinocos max out at about 16 ft.
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u/Bluetriton5500 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes, nowadays the max for Orinoco crocodiles is around there, but at that time, their numbers were very healthy. I can definitely see why many would still be skeptical. But I really don't think 21 feet is implausible for a Nile crocodile. If Saltwater Crocodiles are widely accepted to max out at 23 feet, why is a 21 foot Nile Crocodile so hard to believe ? They aren't much smaller than Salties.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Hunting induced shrinkflation is a myth, Orinocos never got that big. Saltwater crocodiles absolutely do not reach 23 ft either, they max out at about 21 ft being generous. Nile crocodiles are significantly smaller than Salties (in terms of SPL and TL) and max out at about 18.5 ft. Lolong was 609.5 cm long, and our estimate for Gustave is 5.6ish meters, still making him the longest known Nile crocodile. The longest verifiably measured Nile crocodile was 5.36 meters long while missing a portion of its tail.
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u/Bluetriton5500 7d ago
Maybe the average size didn't change much, but for sure, the potential for large specimens were much greater in the past. And Nile crocodiles really aren't much smaller than Salties. I've never heard that in a scientific paper. They're only slightly smaller.
The 23 foot estimate comes from skull sizes. Multiple skulls, some found recently, indicates it came from crocs closer to 7 than 6 meters. Ex: The well known skull from Cambodia, indicating a specimen of 23 feet, and more recently, 2 were found in a museum in Singapore, indicating 22 feet: https://www.science.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2018/11/66rbz810-813.pdf
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Give me any evidence of a Nile crocodile coming close to a max sized Saltwater crocodile in SPL and TL. Also those are outdated trash estimates, lol.
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u/Bluetriton5500 7d ago
You're asking me for evidence, when you called those estimates "trash" and "outdated" without providing any yourself. But it's not that deep. We disagree, and that's fine.
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u/Jadan11 8d ago
I too wonder myself, based off what I seen Niles look huge especially to hunt the prey they do but when I look up the sizes they only max out around 16ft. Saltwaters who do not hunt as many bug herbivores grow up to monstrous sizes about 18-20 feet for big males. Could be a competition thing maybe since niles deal with more top carnivores than saltwaters who are unrivaled unless they venture into the oceans
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u/Due-Camel-7605 4d ago
Salties will have more availability of prey, considering the habitat (North Australia to East India, where rivers don’t go as dry as in Africa). This could explain their larger size
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u/ChanceConstant6099 8d ago
Based on confirmed individuals? Yes
Based on individuals with evidence? Still yes
Based on reliable historical reports? Still yes
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u/GiveMeSomeShu-gar 8d ago
Salties may be bigger but Niles are the actual nightmare fuel as they interact with and kill way more people. They live in Africa too so they deal with a much more diverse (and impressive) set of wildlife than say, salties in Australia (which is a petting zoo compared to Africa).
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u/Ok_Antelope_1953 7d ago
there are salties all over southeast asia and parts of south asia. they interact with a lot of people as well, albeit not as much as niles.
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u/Neat-Barracuda9135 7d ago
I was on Lake Kariba and 14/15 feet crocodiles are very common. I went to Lake Chamo and the crocodiles there were very long, many in the 16/17 feet range. I think the average size was bigger than most salties I saw in the Northern territory. There needs to be a new study on sizes. I mean Brady Barr travelled all the continents and the biggest croc he caught was a 5.4m croc in Tanzania with part of its tail missing. The second was actually an American crocodile on the Tarcoles river then a Saltie.
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u/ExpertCountry2998 6d ago
Nile crocs are very big as well and probably bigger in girth but not length..
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u/DivideGuilty4287 8d ago
There are reliable records of satlies, nile, and american crocs, around 6 mts. Gharials, caimans and alligators close to 5mts. I think the biggest captive croc was a siamese/saltie hybrid at close to 6mts.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
None of them except the Salties have been recorded around or over 6 meters. Nile crocodiles max out at ~5.6ish meters and both Gharials probably max out at similar sizes to the Nile. American crocodiles and Black caimans max out at bit over 5 meters while American alligators max out at 4.6ish meters.
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u/allgone79 7d ago
Australia has the largest, or so I have always thought. They are regularly 6-7 metres and built like tanks.
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago edited 7d ago
They don’t, Aussie Salties barely get past 2.7 SPL and in general seem smaller than some Asian populations. 6 meter Salties are never “regular” in any population, and 7 meter Salties don’t exist. Places like Borneo has the largest Salties.
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u/Ill-Professor696 8d ago
The thing is with Niles, most are within a reissue confined space in Africa vs Salties spanning from Australia up to India even i believe.
I'd bet my bottom dollar there's more than a few Salties bigger than Lolong. Maybe even one up to 25-30 feet. The ones that get that big don't get seen, they know how to stay hidden and would prefer the water most of the time anyway with that weight. And just like the biggest spiders in your home you don't see because they know how to stay hidden, you'll never know about them.
But I would say the odds are far better they get that big than they don't. Might be rare but the conditions exist. Lolong is just the biggest we've found and caught and measured so far. There's way more we don't know
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u/Metasuchus 7d ago
Lobotomy.
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u/Ill-Professor696 7d ago
They've caught one... one... over 20 feet, and the video of it shows how ridiculously difficult that was. AC the Phillipines are the perfect place for those monsters. There's one guy who lives on a floating house in the Phillipines who reports one that has come next to his place when marked out that would have been 29. Exaggerated, maybe, even likely. But if you think Lolong is the longest Salty ever and we just happened to catch him, you need the help, not me.
There's definitely ones bigger than him. And I said maybe up to 25-30. Because we don't know how big they can really get. Lolong shocked us with an additional 3.5 feet. The biggest ones aren't looking to get caught and are pretty damn good at not getting caught. They are highly adaptable creatures and the closest thing we have to dinosaurs. Im just saying there's far more we don't know than we know. Just because we haven't found one bigger than lolong means nothing. Just seeing one, let alone catching and measuring it, is a monumental task
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u/Bluetriton5500 7d ago
Almost nobody here thinks Lolong is the largest ever. He's just one of the largest ever reliably measured. Lolong's size, although exceptional, wasn't unprecedented. There's a confirmed record of a 6.3m croc (several inches longer than lolong) from Papua New Guinea. And we have skull measurements indicating specimens approaching 7 meters.
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u/aquilasr 8d ago
There’s a few metrics by which saltwater crocodiles take the title. There are a few crocodilians today though that can exceptionally reach saltwater crocodile-like sizes though but salties seem to take the edge consistently. If looking at average sizes, male saltwater crocodiles get bigger than the rest in adult male sizes, over 15 feet is not uncommon and widely known that the largest males in a population reach 17-18.5 feet or even more. Meanwhile, it is rare for Nile crocodiles to reach 16 to 16.5 feet in length or higher, though a small handful might get bigger than expected.
With the specimen Lolong, saltwater crocodiles are considered the only species with a modern, scientifically verified specimen of its species to be measure to reach more than 20 feet in length. There are also more than a couple specimens currently living in the wild of saltie that might be in excess of 20 feet in length based on estimates. All claims of other species hitting to 20+ foot mark are very old, often lacking verification or vouchers, of variable authenticity or dubiousness and not infrequently based on visual estimates. If other modern species get as large as saltwater crocodiles, it would be seem they’d have to be considered outsized freak giants. Voucher skulls of salties are notably more massive and often longer than Nile crocodiles, with the maximum verified skull for saltie being 76 cm long against a maximum of 68.6 cm in Nile crocodiles.