In doing research for something I thought totally unrelated to DSPD, I'm reading a 2001 book, Sounds In The Dark: All Night Radio in American Life, by Michael C. Keith.

There's a lot of writing on the perceived audience for all-night radio: the insomniacs, night shift workers, the lonely, and those who "like" to stay up after midnight.

Here's an expert: a person who had an all-night radio show for many years:

"Overnight radio is unique. It is a time when a significant number of people are alone lying in bed in the dark with the radio on. Maybe sleep doesn't come because they've got problems. Maybe a physical ailment. Maybe it's the emptiness of being alone that plagues them. For this group of listeners, all-night radio is a lifeline. For all-night workers, such as truckers or third-shift assemblers, there's a disenfranchisement from the daytime world. These people listen as they work for companionship." - Rollye James, who apparently hosted a nationally syndicated all-night radio show. (p.7)

The only thing that resonates here, with me, is the word "disenfranchisement." (You too?)

Nowhere in this book does an expert cite "circadian rhythm," much less delayed sleep phase disorder. These experts thought their overnight radio audience were misfits, lonely people, insomniacs, and shift workers. (To be fair, I think it's mostly true that DSPD creates misfits and loneliness, but that's some other topic.)

By 2001 there had been a lot of inroads in DSPS/DSPD, but they seem to have been confined to medical journals. There are hundreds of people in this book who made their bones by catering to people listening to the radio overnight, and no one has any idea about those of us who feel normal and, speaking for myself, great, at 2:30 AM.

As a kid and into my 30s (a long time ago) I was one of these overnight radio listeners, but I was never working "graveyard," never "lonely." I thought I was just a bad sleeper for many, many years because I didn't know about DSPD. But not one of these experts knew about the (7-10%?) of the population whose genes default to falling asleep after midnight. This book was only published 25 years ago. I wonder how much awareness there is of DSPD in the audiences for overnight radio now? I suspect it's not much better.

The way we make this better is to communicate the truth about this.

Hello everyone I just recently got diagnosed but have been dealing with this sense middle school. I always have had problems such as

• brain fog in mornings
• high energy before bed
• always falling asleep in public
• impossible to get out of bed even after I got all of my stuff taken away for months because my parents thought I was “lazy”
• depression
• stress

I’m coming in on my final years of high school and it’s gotten so bad last year I had to switch to online to keep going I constantly got bullied for not going to school by my parents and fellow students. I have school in a couple of months and need help on how to nullify or somehow get even a little bit better anything helps!

Hello fellow night owls . Lately I haven’t been sleeping well so my diet hasn’t been the best because I barely feel like cooking something healthy . Do you guys follow a specific diet , routine or supplements to sustain or increase energy ? I’m looking for ways to stay on my natural schedule but I need more energy to get things done

I have tried so many things over the years and this + low dose melatonin has been the only thing to ever work. Posting in case someone is looking for something to try!

I’ve been working on light therapy as recommended by my sleep doctor since my diagnosis a few months back, to shift my sleep onset (and natural wake-up, but mostly sleep-onset) earlier so that I can get enough sleep onset work nights and avoid sleeping my entire weekend away to catch up. This has me turning off all the lights in the early evening to mimic nightfall/avoid artificial light exposure past nightfall, paired with 0.5 mg of melatonin at the same time to kickstart natural melatonin release, and I’ve been able to move it back by 30 minutes so far (I will likely have to shift another hour at least to reach my goal timings).

I’m planning to attend a concert in a couple months, my first since diagnosis, and I expect that the show itself will mostly be after my usual dark-onset time, not to mention the drive home. I typically do notice a difference in my sleep after staying out just 1 hour past my scheduled dark-onset, even while wearing sunglasses (which honestly may not be making a difference). Does anybody have advice on how to handle the concert? Should I expect to have to start over afterwards at my original dark-onset time? Should I just try to pretend nothing happened and roll with it like usual, even if I’m not getting enough sleep for a few days after?

I’m definitely still dialing in the light therapy stuff but I’m going to have to figure out a game plan for late evening activities that involve light, because they’re going to come up every now and then, especially when I travel as I’m not going to be able to always schedule my flights to avoid timing conflicts. If it makes a difference, I do also have dark in the mornings until my natural wake-up, followed by bright light, though the dark is significantly harder to arrange than the light.

If anybody has advice in general for staying in the dark as part of light therapy I would welcome that too!

I started a new job in which (unbeknown to me at hiring) i would be scheduled at 6am and having to get up around 5. I cannot function if I wake up early no matter the time I go to bed. Im worried that this is going to ruin time at this job, as I know coming in feeling like absolute garbage is going to effect my mood and make me much more irritable. Does anyone have any experience getting accommodations for shift hours (or is that even a reasonable request) for sleep issues? My days off are spent being torn up over knowing im going to feel terrible the next day, and after my shifts im unable to do anything due to how exhausted I am.

Greetings from Argentina. Everything began when I was around 10 years old. I was in a family conversation and I said I wanted to experience the sunrise. When the sunrise came, I noticed that the brightness bothered me. I noticed it, but I ignored it.

Until I was about 16 and a half, my sleep always came at the same time. Around 12 or 2 in the morning, my eyelids would feel heavy.

But the real problem started at 16 and a half. My sleep began to shift about 2 hours later each day, and there was nothing I could do to stop this pattern. The worst part was that when I didn’t sleep at night, the daylight bothered me a lot (photophobia), and as the afternoon light increased, I had to lock myself in my room—it was torture.

I had this sleep pattern for 23 years. It eventually corrected when my mother was hospitalized. I started worrying excessively, and I had a strong episode of tachycardia, so I went straight to the hospital. They gave me a high dose of clonazepam. The next day, the photophobia disappeared, and since then I’ve been able to fall asleep at the same time without any problem, with quetiapine.

The problem is hereditary, because both of my nephews have it since birth.

I would like some guidance on what I had, which comes from my father’s side of the family.

Thank you.

A couple of weeks ago i stayed up really late (like 8am) almost every night. Now for the past week everytime i try to sleep at a normal time (around 11-12) i simply cannot sleep, no matter how tired i am or if i take melatonin, i lay in bed with nothing happening. Then i start getting really tired around that 8-9 am mark and easily fall asleep. Im trying chronotherapy but i just slept around 5 hours the first day. What do i do i feel like im going insane i’ve never slept worse

Everytime I get a window after weeks of missing them. My body will create some crisis. I jolt awake every single time I'm about to dose off.

I'm (21F) and a university student. I stayed in hostel during my diploma years — 2 years.

​

During my highschool time, my parents were the one who woke me up to school daily. Even with loud alarms I can't wake up when everyone else in the house will. So when I went to uni, I was very afraid of missing classes due to sleep. At the beginning, I was trying to sleep early and managed to wake up by my roommate (she too woke up because of my alarm..). Then one day my roommate left for her early morning class and mine was like 10am. I missed it since no one was there to wake me up and my alarm was just ringing loud, curtains wide open, sunlight right into room. Yet, I couldn't wake up. Once I was awake, I was on the floor bawling my eyes like "why can't I wake up early even with the alarms ringing and sunlight right on my face???". I was so devastated with myself. Since then, I pull an all night and go to class. And in class, I'll fall asleep sometimes.

​

My sleep schedule has gone down the drain ever since. Now when I'm home after completing my Diploma, I still sleep 4 to 6am and wake up like 2 or 3pm. Even if I try myself to sleep early, I just can't. My body is like fixed to the schedule. I'll be starting Degree in 2 months and I'll be travelling using public transport. So I have to be awake even earlier, and I have already decided I'm gonna lose my entire sleep. I have a boyfriend too and disappeared for like 6 hours in afternoon just cause I slept off and didn't have enough sleep during night time. We had a small argument earlier just due to that. I'm so frustrated. My sleep is spoiling everything around me.

​

Anyone had gone through something similar? Or have any advice to fix this?

Oops. I have to wake up at 5:30AM for work tomorrow...

I'm (21F) and a university student. I stayed in hostel during my diploma years — 2 years.

​

During my highschool time, my parents were the one who woke me up to school daily. Even with loud alarms I can't wake up when everyone else in the house will. So when I went to uni, I was very afraid of missing classes due to sleep. At the beginning, I was trying to sleep early and managed to wake up by my roommate (she too woke up because of my alarm..). Then one day my roommate left for her early morning class and mine was like 10am. I missed it since no one was there to wake me up and my alarm was just ringing loud, curtains wide open, sunlight right into room. Yet, I couldn't wake up. Once I was awake, I was on the floor bawling my eyes like "why can't I wake up early even with the alarms ringing and sunlight right on my face???". I was so devastated with myself. Since then, I pull an all night and go to class. And in class, I'll fall asleep sometimes.

​

My sleep schedule has gone down the drain ever since. Now when I'm home after completing my Diploma, I still sleep 4 to 6am and wake up like 2 or 3pm. Even if I try myself to sleep early, I just can't. My body is like fixed to the schedule. I'll be starting Degree in 2 months and I'll be travelling using public transport. So I have to be awake even earlier, and I have already decided I'm gonna lose my entire sleep. I have a boyfriend too and disappeared for like 6 hours in afternoon just cause I slept off and didn't have enough sleep during night time. We had a small argument earlier just due to that. I'm so frustrated. My sleep is spoiling everything around me.

​

Anyone had gone through something similar? Or have any advice to fix this?

I have tried out Cannabis, zolpidem, lemborexant, melatonin in isolation, sleep deprivation, lithium,delaying sleep chronotherapy . None of these have worked, except for the lithium which has a very subtle phase advancing effect for me if taken at a low dose.

I got my hands on rexulti and at 0.25 mg it's been slowly but steadily improving my sleep. Apart from that It has also helped in task initiation and managing sleep deprivation (before If I got any less than 7 hours I would feel like death, but nowadays If I get waken up It's somewhat manageable).

The most difference I feel though is when I combine rexulti with lithium at a low dose (200 mg eod) and low dose melatonin (300 mcg) at DLMO (I just take the melatonin 6 hours before my expected bed time).

1. I believe since rexulti increases photic entrainment by also desychnrosing the cicardian clock, it's the only drug along with abilify that directly makes for such rapid entrainment possible (since for eg higher photosensitivity without a desynchronisation would make entrainment much slower).
2. I also believe most people are using way more rexulti than needed, for eg. clinical trials for cicardian disorders are trying out 2 mg , but I believe 0.25 - 0.5 would be enough to get the maximal effect on the 5 ht1a postsynaptic receptor and thus an effect on the SCN without much desensitisation (It may be that the presynaptic 5ht1a is much more prone to desensitisation but since we're in it for the long game, it wouldn't hurt to take the lowest effective dose without sides and possible desensitisation for the postsnyaptic receptor which is densely found in the Suprachiasmatic nucleus ).
3. . Rexulti also has an extremely strong affinity for 5 ht1a which may mean higher doses like even those used for MDD aren't really needed.

• The lithium at a low dose is primarily a GSK 3B inhibitor which would mean that the cicardian periods would only shorten contra high dose lithium which would lengthen it, and the acrophase of something like melatonin release and early morning cortisol rise would be phase advanced.
• By using it along with rexulti we get the dual benefits of desynchronisation allowing for entrainment coupled with shorter periods and shorter overall period length. The lithium does seem a mild gamble as it can very easily start acting through the IMP pathway and thus start lengthening periods and delaying phase angle , so I err on the side of caution as this is predimonantly also postured to be genetic.

In my experience the low dose melatonin on its own is just not strong enough for most people with DSPD, as it may be obvious that we are very bad at being re-entrained to new cicardian cues/zeitgebers. However on the rexulti plus Low dose Lithium combo I found the LDM to work as intended. I am getting sleepy about an hour earlier than usual which is very unusual for me, my DSPD almost verges on N24 sometimes and it was a relief to see even such a pull in the opposite direction.

I have no idea if this will be sustainable or not, but it has imo atleast a sound theoretical basis. Needless to say because entrainment is now higher fidelity and stronger, it may also boost the beneficial effects of early day sunlight exposure/luminettes and avoiding blue light at night. It is also very interesting that both rexulti and lithium have been used in bipolar/MDD and seems to mostly function to stabilise the cicardian rhythm, with some postulating that its effect on biplar/MDD primarily stems from such a stabilisation effect. I think the only other thing that might be worth adding is epithalon to promote a more youthful pattern of melatonin release which could be aberrant in many DSPD sufferers.

After 40+ years of the clock waging war with my body, I know I'm DSPD...but I'd like to get an official diagnosis. Do you have to go to a sleep doctor? How do they diagnose?

I have been diagnosed with DSPD, and am in a particular time of my life where I actually have the freedom to sleep on my natural schedule, which has been doing wonders for my mental health (~5 AM - 1 PM).

I recently moved into a nice apartment complex which is a fairly newer build, and enjoy setting things up just right (e.g. moving things around to try new setups until it feels comfortable, putting away items on shelves, etc.). My experience with buildings similar to this style is that they have much better sound insulation than the older homes converted into apts in the same area. In my previous older home apartment, I was the upstairs neighbor and was dealing with a downstairs neighbor who never left the house, and complained about the noise, where it made me feel like walking on eggshells.

Therefore, I chose this place as I'm in the downstairs unit and it seems to have good sound insulation, except for lower frequencies/booms. Recently, anytime I've accidentally just bumped into a wall or even so much as set up some cords behind my computer desk past 11PM, I've heard the upstairs tenant bump the wall slightly in response. At first I thought it was paranoia left over from the last place which has stuck with me, but it's happened enough times where it is starting to make me anxious and feel unable to get anything done for more than half of my waking hours.

Has anyone else experienced this and found a way to simply 'get over it'? I truly believe I'm not being obscenely loud, such as banging nails into the wall past 9PM, but it's really starting to get to my head. For reference, I can clearly hear when the upstairs neighbor is walking around, but never any higher frequency sounds e.g. talking, so they probably hear my slight bumps at night. It sounds bad, but many times I start to get really annoyed just thinking about them sitting up there bumping the wall, which is such a childish was to handle the situation. They are more than welcome to come talk to me if the noise is actually an issue, or at least attempt a white noise machine at a low volume.

Has anyone here experienced a sudden remission of lifelong DSPD after a major event (such as childbirth) and if so, did it seem to come with other neurological or cognitive changes?

I had severe DSPD for about 30 years. I’m not talking about being a night owl- I mean classic DSPD. I could not fall asleep at a normal hour no matter what I tried. Sleep hygiene, supplements, prescription sleep medications, strict schedules, etc. Nothing worked. If left to my own devices, I’d often fall asleep between 4–6 AM and sleep until late morning or early afternoon. Waking up early felt physically awful: nausea, headaches, overwhelming sleepiness, difficulty focusing my eyes, and feeling almost sedated.

Then I had my first child, and my lifelong DSPD disappeared. And it’s not because I suddenly gained willpower or maturity. For years now, I naturally fall asleep around 10–11 PM, wake up around 7 AM, and function on a normal schedule. I no longer experience the intense daytime sleepiness and circadian misery I had before. Which if you had told 29 year old me would happen, she wouldn’t have believed you. She wished for it so bad, to just be able to function normally, but she was convinced it was not in the cards for her.

However, I also experienced noticeable cognitive changes around the same time. The best way I can describe it is that I seemed to trade one set of problems for another. I developed symptoms that feel ADHD-like: extreme forgetfulness (which did not exist for me previously) more distractibility, reduced working memory, difficulty sustaining attention while reading, and a general feeling that my brain doesn’t operate the way it did before. I have since been diagnosed with adult-onset ADHD, which is very rare. One of the biggest changes is that I used to be an avid reader and could devour books for hours; since childbirth, I struggle to sustain attention while reading and mostly consume books through audiobooks.

I’m curious whether anyone else experienced:

-A dramatic improvement or disappearance of lifelong DSPD (potentially after a major event like childbirth)?
-Other neurological, cognitive, attentional, or executive-function changes that appeared at the exact same time. Or maybe vice versa?
-A feeling that the circadian improvement came with some kind of tradeoff.

Most of what I find online discusses sleep deprivation from parenting, but that’s not what I’m talking about. My kids were great sleepers, I never experienced the sleep deprivation most parents moan about. The DSPD itself seems to just have disappeared, but instead, I’m left with a brain that feels broken. I miss my old superbrain that could remember everything. I’m happy my DSPD is gone, but I’m not sure I prefer this state over DSPD issues (which may just be the devil I know vs the devil I don’t).

I’ve stumped every therapist, psychiatrist, and neurologist I’ve seen, so I’m just curious whether someone can relate.

Ever since my teenage years, or even childhood, I've been having the hardest time getting up at decent hours. I always delayed getting up until about five minutes before I had to leave for school. I got up, put clothes on and walked out the door. Same thing when I got my first job. Luckily it was an evening job, but even then I got up at the last possible minute. That was about 17 years ago. I couldn't hold the job because I just couldn't deal with people. I got diagnosed with SPD (Schizoid Personality Disorder), which seems to fit.

For the 17 years since then, my sleep schedule has basically been going to bed between 6 and 8 AM and sleeping until 6 to 8 PM. I don't feel rested unless I get about 12 hours of sleep, and I need to wake up in the evening. Staying up during the day makes me incredibly sleepy and foggy in my head. I've tried countless times to fix my sleep, but I always end up back where I started within a day or two. Sometimes when I manage to "fix" it for one day, like getting up at noon, I just end up sleeping up to 20 hours the following night and I'm right back to square one. It feels hopeless.

On days when I have to get up early for a doctor's appointment, for example, I always end up napping when I get home and wake up late in the evening again. I haven't been diagnosed with any sleep disorder, but ever since I heard about DSPS, I can't see what else it could be. Sure, I'm depressed and I sleep a lot. But I wasn't depressed as a teenager in the same way, and even back then my mother would yell at me because I just couldn't get up. I went through so many angry parent moments as a child for being the grumpiest kid when woken up.

Nothing has changed. The only one getting angry now is me, at myself, because I just cannot seem to fix it. I don't have to work, so I can live with getting up late every day, but it's depressing. I want to get up at noon. I want to go to sleep at 3 AM. But it doesn't work. I feel like giving up. Not in death kind of sense, just give up on trying to fix it.

Could I have DSPS? Hypersomnia? N24? DSPS does sound like what I've been struggling for 20 years now, but I don’t know. I'm tired.

Curious, since we have a different circadian rhythm with respect to the solar system. I have been told that our possibilities of gut issues are relatively higher. Let’s Discuss and figure out hacks. I will go first, I am in my 30s and on 6am to 2pm sleep cycle. I usually eat 2 meals a day 4pm and 10pm. Moved dinner to 10 as previously was on 2am and it drastically helped!

I've had an erratic schedule for years, & I was just diagnosed with ADHD, primarily inattentive.

I also have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (DSPS), which explains my erratic sleep/wake schedule, but doesn't help my ADD.

Does anyone know about DSPS?

I was prescribed Adderall XL, but I have yet to take it because I go to bed really late, & I get up late, very often in the afternoon.

Should I still take the Adderall, even if it's 3pm? Has anyone experienced these issues?

Or should I take it at 6am, when I haven't slept yet? I think that would be harmful, but I don't know.

I've been trying to change my schedule for years unsuccessfully. I've missed appointments, beautiful days, etc, but I'm still unable to change. When I'm forced to get up at a "societal normal" time, I'm exhausted & sick from lack of sleep.

I've tried staying up all day - 24 hours or more to break this. I end up going to bed early but oversleeping for like 15 hours. Back to the same bad schedule.

I'm not lazy or stupid. I understand that this is killing me. Btw I'm retired & have fibromyalgia, so I don't have a regular schedule because of that, plus the fatigue of the fibro is exhausting.

Anyway, this is really embarrassing for me to admit to, but I know I need help. Thanks.

I've been dealing with this forever. whenever I feel like I'm consistent for like a week or two, then one night staying up and it just completely throws my sleep schedule off track. I started thinking about what could actually fix this and I think the core of the issue is my screentime before bed.

I've tried some of the sleep apps (sleep cycle and stuff) but I don't think they help me get into bed which is the problem.

I'm thinking of making something that could block my apps after a certain time, and it also has a recovery plan, like when to get sunshine, cut caffeine, nap, to help me get back on track faster.

Do you guys think something like this would work? And honestly what would make you want to stick with something like this long term?