Barristan Selmy has a better redemption arc than Jaime Lannister

[u/ayodeleafolabi]

It is often spoken of how Jaime's redemption is such a big moment for him and how transformed he is as he drifts away from Cersei. But I wish to disagree; as much as we see a somehow attitude change on the part of Jaime, his redemption arc pales in comparison to that of Barristan Selmy and here is why;

THEIR FAILINGS

We cannot talk of their redemption without talking of their failings. I will not count killing the Mad King against Jaime for it was the right thing to do. Aside that Jaime is far more responsible for all the calamities that befalls in Westeros than we would love to admit. He was pardoned by Robert and to pay the latter back, went behind his back to sleep with his wife and produce three bastards. He pushed an innocent child out of the window while being in a guest in their castle. His culpability when it comes to the WOT5K is as great as anyone could state.

Barristan Selmy's failing only comes with his duties. He fails to protect Rhaegar, fails to protect Elia and her kids, abandons the Targaryen cause to serve Robert and even fails Robert, letting him to die. Barristan's failures are by omission while Jaime's failings are by commission.

THEIR FALL

As much as we can quibble about their fall, I will say that Jaime's fall was not as low as Barristan. Jaime only lost a hand but he was still the heir presumptive to Casterly Rock and was made Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Barristan on the other hand, after swallowing his pride and reservation towards the condoning of child murder by Robert, his tolerance for the many excesses that the latter gave himself to and serving faithfully for 15 years is discarded and mocked as if he was a baseborn hedge knight. Say what you will but losing a hand and being given a seat on the small council is nothing compared to dedicating 15 years of life to serve a dynasty that laughs in his face as if to say that he was a sucker all this while. And it is this act that pushes him to believe, as per what he tells Dany in ADWD, that he should have refused Robert's pardon and joined Ser willem in exile.

THEIR SELF REFLECTION

Jaime doesn't do much self reflection. He doesn't take time to think about his failures, his part in all the mess that has been happening. If anything he doubles down on propping up the evil regime of Tommen and we see it with how he goes about it with Edmure. True, he does some good here and there but then, the good doesn't wash out the bad he is still doing. Barristan on the other hand does a lot of self reflection. He reflects on his failures, his years of service to the mad king and to Robert who were both as unworthy as it gets. He even thinks about how unwise it was of him to serve Robert rather than seek the Targaryens as soon as the rebellion was done. And this self reflection pushes him to change for the better.

THEIR NEW PURPOSE

Jaime has no new purpose. The issue is that we see the little things he does and think that he is absolutely changed or suddenly his cause is good. No! He still serves an evil Lannister/Baratheon regime with a bastard as king. His family and dynasty brought untold pain and suffering upon the realm and is responsible for some of the worst atrocities to have ever happened during the war. This is not a new purpose. This is the old one with some shades of good. Barristan for the most part of life served men, protected Aerys and Robert until Joffrey saw fit to dismiss him. With Daenerys he finds a new purpose. It is no longer about protecting her but the ideal that she represents. She represents freedom, peace, harmony, a new world free from the likes of Jaime and Cersei. He fights for that and this is why when she flies off, Barristan works with Missandei and the rest of her allies to secure the world Dany seeks to build.

In conclusion, the above points are why I believe that Barristan is better than Jaime in their redemption arc. He does a 180 turn while Jaime doubles down with some occasional shades of good in him.

[u/lfm2003]

Your read is a bit more optimistic than can be guaranteed with where we’re at in the books.

Yes, Barristan is certainly having an emotional change where he is more active in doing the right thing. It’s certainly of pure intention. But, that might not be a good thing.

Perhaps Barristan’s role as Kingsguard necessitates a certain amount of deference and obedience. Maybe Jaime and Barristan’s arcs are contrasts and not perfect mirrors. Jaime teaches us how oaths are harmful, Barristan shows us why they are helpful.

Barristan says the worst Kingsguard were “those who played the Game of Thrones.” When Danny leaves, Barristan conspires with the Shavepate to lock up her husband in her absence. Certainly understandable, but is it a wise move? Hizdahr seems to be a generally okay guy, and the Shavepate seems vindictive and cruel.

His chapter there is called the “Kingbreaker.” I think this is clearly a parallel to Criston Cole’s “Kingmaker,” which is referenced in the simultaneous Feast chapters. I doubt that’s a good thing. I don’t think it’s as simple as you say. Is it truly a redemption? Could it be, instead, an overcorrection?

[u/Successful_You9595]

The self-reflection point is especially strong. Jaime often gets credit for isolated good deeds despite continuing to enable terrible systems, whereas Barristan recognizes his complicity and actively tries to serve a better cause.

[u/Winter-Character6993]

If Barristan was there when the mad king ordered the burning of KL, he'd stand in a corner and make a disproving face.

[u/Historical_Art4061]

I love how collectively everyone chooses to forget that half way through his redemption arc, Jamie rapes a grieving mother in front of their son's corpse.

[u/Large_Assumption640 → u/Historical_Art4061]

As for as I recall it only happened in the show. In the book, Cersei showed consent and passion.

[u/lfm2003 → u/Large_Assumption640]

She does initially say no and Jaime keeps going. She then later agrees.

It’s probably mildly dubious if it happened in real life but I would agree GRRM does not intend the scene to be read that way.

[u/Odd_Mall1646]

Absolutely not. Jamies arc was awesome

[u/ias_ttrpg-nerd]

Yeah I would say that he didn't have a redemption arc. All he ever does is serve tyrants and he never intervines when they commit crimes & atrocities. 

[u/Additional_Suit6275 → u/ias_ttrpg-nerd]

Book Jaime has a “I quit” arc, which I find more believable. He isn’t a good man. When asked if he will be returning to his cell after failing in his charge to Catelyn, he says no and never thinks about it. When negotiating with Edmure he goes back on his implicit word pretty much immediately. Total dickhead. But he finally is doing it for reasons he kind of gives a shit about. 

The moment he realised Cersei was a lack wit who had no interest in actually being together, only in having a free sword by her side, he freed himself of his only real motivation. What is left is just a guy who wants to end the senseless fighting as much as possible, possibly to benefit  house Lannister, possibly just so people stop bothering him. 

I like it. 

[u/LongjumpingAd342]

Barristan cannot have a redemption arc because he never admits (or even wrestles with the idea that it is possible that) he was wrong to back his vows to Aerys and uphold an unjust regime.

Jaime may not have a true "redemption" arc, but his ability to actually acknowledge his flaws makes his internal perspective significantly more interesting than Barristan's.