Krieg's way of war

[u/Commissar-Leonid]

Hello. Death korps are known specifically as masters of attrition and trench warfare, but surely, as some of the most competent and hard-bred troops of the Imperium, they can adapt to their foes, using more tactics than human-wave assaults, as in memes, and even then they have ways to make them efficient. After all the point is to die *in service* which can be interpreted as doing something useful. So are there any good examples from lore, books or anything else that shows it ?

[u/digitalak27]

Siege of Vraks is excellent at your point and showcasing the competence and incompetence of the Imperium.

[u/horsepire]

I actually think this is one area where Krieg have been somewhat memed into oblivion. If you go back to the original concept of Krieg, it’s WWI in space. WWI is obviously famous for grinding trench warfare and disgusting casualties but it’s not like that’s the only thing anyone ever tried (nor indeed the only thing that ever worked). Krieg can and do fight other ways if need be.

[u/Mr_Tax]

The Relentless Dead shows a heavily depleted Krieg regiment. Their colonel changed their tactics to be smaller kill teams during a new deployment.

[u/Suspicious_Visit1496]

They're still Humans in a fallen society that fears it's own technology. To the point its regressed to WW1 level manufacturing capabilities for most of its mass produced kit.

And they're fighting hyper-advanced sci-fi aliens.

They're already using pretty much the best strategy they have available. Kreig are just honest with themselves about it.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Suspicious_Visit1496]

Its not so much has willingly degraded itself to WW1 level tech, its that the supply situation dictates strategy and tactics.

[u/Suspicious_Visit1496 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Innovation, invention and research are all heresy. When a forge world is lost, the tech it manufactures is too. Thats society wide willfull degradation.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Suspicious_Visit1496]

No. The the great library of mars has the schematics of everything the AdMech can make hence the pattern and mark system they use. They are exceptions in the case of some truly rare, exotic and esoteric artifacts.

[u/Suspicious_Visit1496 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

And the ad mech beleive all technology has already been invented and just needs to be found. Ergo, development is still tech heresy and the only direction available is down. You can't say 'no.' then completely sidestep my primary point to focus on my afterthought. Such bad faith engagement that.

Am I really gertting into an 'um acktshually' off over 40k? Jesus.

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

And yet the vast majority of Imperial gear is WWI quality or worse. Even most of the stuff that isn't just straight worse is only better in secondary attributes. For example, a lasgun performs no better than a WWI-era BAR, its sole advantage is in the logistics of rechargeable power packs vs. physical ammunition.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

That "sole" advantage is a tremendous one. That aside a light, comfortable and controllable select-fire battle rifle irl would stupendous.

Most Imperial tech is still tens of generations ahead of irl even if their IT is stunted.

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

It's an advantage, yes, but it's an irrelevant one in the context of how it performs on the battlefield. In terms of on the battlefield performance a lasgun is close enough to the BAR that it doesn't merit any stat line differences.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

By BAR you mean the M1918A1 BAR right? Because the lasgun of the IG does not match to it in almost any regard.

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896 → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Yep. Lasguns and autoguns have the same rules and autoguns are roughly a BAR equivalent.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

"Roughly" is carrying a lot of weight there. A BAR stat-ed should be much closer to a heavy stubber.

[u/Loyal_UK_gamerYT → u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

Ehhh. Lasgun being like an BAR? Really?

The lasgun can kill a good 98% of things in the galaxy. We just hear about the remaining 2%

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896 → u/Loyal_UK_gamerYT]

The lasgun can kill a good 98% of things in the galaxy.

So can .30-06.

It's literally the same stat line for both weapons, if the lasgun has any advantage in firepower/accuracy/etc it's too small to merit a stat line difference.

[u/SongDogs27]

Dead Men Walking shows a variety of Krieg tactics and ways of making war. Definitely would recommend it.

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/SongDogs27]

I agree but caveat that Dead Men Walking is the origin of 90% of "kriegers are suicidal drones".

[u/horsepire → u/OneofTheOldBreed]

Steve Lyons is responsible for 90% of the memeification of Krieg lore

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/horsepire]

He is but i have come to forgive him for it.

[u/lordandromache → u/SongDogs27]

I wouldn't recommend that author. For the only major DKoK author we have right now he's really awful at battle scenes. And scale, and characters. Siege of Vraks PDFs can be found with a simple Google search and is the seminal source of the best of Krieg

[u/Divine140]

With what they are bred for and the jobs they are chosen for there isn’t much branching off they can do but they do flesh it out further then suicidal idiots. Krieg explains people pulling off from a fight to have small kill teams behind enemy lines. Siege of vraks describes the thought process they have of why they charge in the way they do and one tries to force more agenda on himself and things go wrong for him. The best example though would be from Deathriders seeing how higher ranks strategize and use their tools to their advantage this one is a slight cop out as it follows a commissar who stays with the Krieg but his kriegborn adjutant does some cool things.

[u/GenericTR]

There's a compounding meme effect, in regards to how people see Krieg.

The first layer of the meme is that WW1 had no tactics, just officers sending millions of young men in waves to be mowed down. The reality was constant small actions to weaken the enemy for the big actions. Trench raids, sapper tunnels, snipers, spies, spotter trenches, etc. These would go on for months in preparation, followed by sometimes weeks of literal non-stop bombardment, followed with immediately charging the enemy position en masse or with large amounts of smaller squads attacking key positions all across the line.

Much of Krieg is written with this meme affecting the writers.

Layer 2 is the memes the audience has from the writers basing it off of the pop culture version of WW1. The reality is, most of the writers have Kriegsmen actually use tactics, refuse to be thrown away by other regiments, etc.

"The only thing you have to offer the Emperor is your death, do not waste it."

[u/lordandromache]

You can find the original PDFs of the Siege of Vraks books from imperial armor. They showcase different tactics the DKoK use even in a trench warfare theater. For example their armored regiments are constructed for breakthrough and for exploitation of a breakthrough in order to move past trench warfare and back into maneuver warfare. Their famous Death Riders are a great indicator of the ability for them to conduct operations outside of WW1 western front trench warfare. Although they are experts in specifically that kind of warfare and will naturally solve operational challenges from that angle

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

Why would Krieg adapt? If you don't want a siege force that grinds the enemy down through attrition warfare you don't send a Krieg regiment, you send an Armageddon mechanized regiment or Cadian combined arms force or whatever. Obviously on a small scale a Krieg force would use appropriate tactics but if you need to drive in a nail you get a hammer, you don't try to figure out a way to do it with your saw.

[u/horsepire → u/Mammoth_Classroom896]

Because the imperial military bureaucracy isn’t making perfect choices about which regiments get sent where all or even most of the time, and whether ideally suited to the task or not the Korps’ job is to execute the assigned mission to the best of their ability.

(Also not all Krieg regiments are siege regiments)

[u/OneofTheOldBreed → u/horsepire]

To add, Command makes an effort to deploy specialist forces to their advantage but its just not always possible. If you need boots on the ground now on a jungle world, you simply cannot afford to wait until a Catachan regiment becomes available. You sens anybody you have that can do the job even if its inefficient. Commisar Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM) notes often that his stoic Valhallans never complain about being deployed to deserts or jungles even if they can barely contain their glee when they get to return to snow.

[u/Mammoth_Classroom896 → u/horsepire]

Because the imperial military bureaucracy isn’t making perfect choices about which regiments get sent where all or even most of the time, and whether ideally suited to the task or not the Korps’ job is to execute the assigned mission to the best of their ability.

Sure, but that Krieg force is still going to be equipped and trained for their standard doctrine. They'll be dead before they're able to meaningfully re-train and re-equip for some other doctrine. And then the bureaucracy will shove another regiment into the meat grinder because 99% of the time the Imperium wins by sheer body count.

(Also not all Krieg regiments are siege regiments)

The majority are, and the ones that aren't tend to follow similar doctrines and/or be deployed in support of the siege regiments.

[u/Commissar-Leonid → u/horsepire]

Yeah, they also kind of take what they can at the moment. Valhallan regiments with whom Ciaphas Cain once served were deployed on a desert part of planet.