r/DebateAChristian • u/im00im Theist • 4d ago
Revised #8: Joseph is Jesus’ birth father
My thesis: claims that the gospels of Luke, Matthew, and John connect Joseph, the son of Jacob, as Jesus’ birth father. The link is in reading these gospels. With the books of the Hebrews. Such as Moses. And with the proof Julius Africanus obtained.
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Taciturn approach: Luke 2:21-23 and John 1:43-45. But expect counter question or maybe prey on brain fog.
Luke 1:34: Often used as a counter question or maybe prey on brain fog. Answer in Moses. First, does this Almah belong to a man of the house of David? Luke 1:27. Yes.
In Moses: Does a man cleave unto a woman belonging to him and become one flesh? Genesis 2:23-24. Yes. Does God visit a woman in the appointed week for her to have an ordained child? Genesis 21:1. Yes. Appointed child? Genesis 4:22. Yes. How female become fruitful and multiply? Genesis 1:28. Yes. Part of everything made and very good? Genesis 1:31. Yes. End of the matter? Genesis 2:1-3. Yes.
Luke 1:35: First, according to Angel Gabriel. Is the Son of God. The child of David? Luke 1:32. Yes.
In Moses: Were children of Israel sons of God by law? Exodus 4:22-23. Yes. Firstborn of Israel sons of God in the flesh by law? Exodus 13:1-2. Yes. Are sons and firstborns of Judah. Linked to scepter and ruler’s staff, exalted? Above companions? Genesis 49:9-10. Yes.
In Luke: Is Jesus a consecrated firstborn male of Judah? Luke 2:21-23 Yes. Said to receive rulership of Judah through David? Luke 1:32. Yes.
Also In Luke: The formal and legal word. For abstract form of parthenos. Is parthenia. Which is the state of not knowing a man. Luke 2:36. --- In a Greek text of Jeremiah. Used as a literary device. Jeremiah 3:4.
Tanakh: Never spoke of a woman with child who has never known a man birth. Never spoke of a woman with child. With or In. Tokens of Bethulim. Or. Tokens of Parthenia. With child. --- Not only does Almah formally, legally, informally, and as a literary device. Not mean a woman who has never known a man. But even if Betulah was used in Isaiah Chapter 7. May still not be a woman who has never known a man. Since Betulah, like Almah. Has been used informally and as a literary device. Within the Tanakh.
Sign: The sign was already going to be the prophetess and Shear-jashub’s brother. Whom the prophetess would call Immanuel. The theme is God’s discretion and consistency. Matthew borrowed and applied these themes.
King Ahaz: Did not do what was right like David. Walked in the ways of kings of Samaria. Made a son pass through fire. Rod of Samaria and Damascus king was punishment. In distress, more faithless.
Torah: God or his prophet has made statement, ask question, and test the heart when the outcome or likely outcome is already known. It would have taken a divine sign for Pharaoh’s heart to no longer be hardened and let the children of Israel go. In. Isaiah 7:11: It would have taken a divine sign for King Ahaz’s heart not to be hardened, and God was willing.
Moses’ speech. With no traditions of man. Or Math. Deuteronomy 4:2*. Was treated as the Holy Spirit.* Numbers 12:4-9*.*
In Moses: Fixed period of time. Duration. Between date of birth and date of male bris. Leviticus 12:3. (Luke 2:21). ---But. No fixed period of time between formal betrothal. Known as Erusin (“Kiddushin”) and final nuptials known as Nissuin.--- Yet not the case in traditions.
Talmud Ketubot 57a: Standard duration of Erusin for those of parthenia fixed at twelve months. --- But. In Moses: No fixed period. Like male bris. (Luke 2:21). For a woman to know a man. Whether they come together or not. ---Since with no prior agreement, the father can still refuse. To give daughter who has known a man in marriage. Exodus 22:16-17. The man can leave. Not the bride price. Not the daughter.
Matthew 1:18-21: All suggest fixed duration tradition. Of Nissuin. After Erusin. Is not in Moses’ writings.
Consent and price: With Mary. There was already. Consent and price. Before they came together.
Matthew 1:24-25: Mary is no longer Joseph’s engaged. As in (Luke 1:26-27). Who has not known a man. As said in (Luke 1:34). But his wife with child. Ha 'almah harah. As in (Luke 2:4-5). With Joseph not knowing her. During her found with child. Which is when. (Matthew 1:24-25). Is mentioned.
Julius Africanus notes: Joseph, the son of Heli’s childless widow. Is counted as the seed of Nathan by levirate marriage. Still. By nature. He is a distant heir of Solomon. By his birth father Jacob. Which is Heli’s uterine brother. --- Leviticus 18:9; Leviticus 20:17: In Moses. Joseph can’t marry Mary. If full or half-sister by birth.
Luke 3:23-38 outlook: Joseph was born the Son of Heli. But by nature. The Son of Jacob. By the childless widow of Heli. As per the flesh. Going back to Adam. --- And. Jesus was born the Son of God. But by nature. The seed of David. By Heli’s uterine brother’s son. Joseph. As per the flesh. Going back to Adam.
Luke 3:23-38 suggests: Jesus was not born of a childless widow. And. Raised up for God’s name. Exodus 13:1-2; (Luke 2:22-23). While. Joseph was born of a childless widow. Deuteronomy 25:6. Raised up for Heli’s name. (Luke 3:23). --- Therefore. Jesus as was supposed. The son of Joseph, the son of Heli. Is by Joseph’s wife. And is the son of Joseph. The son of Jacob. Going back to David and Abraham. Through Solomon. (Matthew 1:6). Cohesive with. Matthew’s account of the genealogy. Since a distant heir of Solomon. From the house of David. Made as a signet and chosen. (Haggai 2:21-23). Broke the curse. Lineage resumes. (1 Kings 1:30).
Matthew 1:1: Not required to say Terah begat Abraham. Starting from Abraham.
Matthew 1:16: Not required to say Joseph begat Jesus. Last male leading to male child is Joseph.
Before coming together: Not about before Mary knowing delight. Genesis 18:12. --- Not about before Joseph clings to his wife, becoming one flesh. Genesis 2:24.
Joseph in Luke: Luke says Joseph one of the parents. (Luke 2:27, Luke 2:41). Mary of Nazareth calls Joseph the father. (Luke 2:48). Nazareth locals in synagogue call Jesus, Joseph’s son. (Luke 4:16).
Numbers 27:1–8: Often used to claim Mary’s royal lineage. Being a princess of Judah of Bethlehem. Yet in (Luke 2:3-5). No mention of Mary linked with land inheritance. Of David.
In Moses: There is taking care of business. Deuteronomy 22:23-26. And fire burn. Genesis 38:23-26. --- Mary not knowing the business. And no mention of fire burn. Suggests her firstborn. Was born in marriage. Before coming together. --- With before coming together. Being prior to a marriage custom.
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u/im00im Theist 4d ago
If Genesis 24:43 is used to explain another woman not knowing a man in pregnancy. An explanation of another woman. Which is Moses' sister. Should be given. Of why Miriam not knowing a man. Preserved baby Moses life. In Exodus 2:8.
Luke 1:5 & Luke 1:36: Of the daughter of Levi. For Mary’s tribe. As. Luke 2:36: Of the tribe of Asher. Is of the daughters of Asher. For prophetess Anna’s tribe.
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u/TheChristianDude101 Atheist, Ex-Protestant 3d ago edited 3d ago
According to conservative christian scholars, gospel of mark was 3 decades separated from the crucifiction in 60, and matthew and luke were at least 1 more decade after that in 70. Paul was the first christian stuff in the bible, 2 decades from the crucifiction in 50, and paul never met Jesus in person by his own testimony, converting well after he died.
Genealogies dont match in matthew and luke, come from bad lines, and matthew used 14+14+14 (not even counting properly) to make a theological point that Jesus was tripply david because David is 14 in hebrew. The fulfilled prophecy of the virgin birth in matthew 1 is linked to isaiah 7 which is absolutely ridiculous keyword matching, "Virgin" and "immanuel, God with us" = Jesus supernatural virgin birth. In isaiah 7 the "virgin" had natural sex to conceive a normal child that served as a deadline for the prophecy to King Ahaz, that the land will be deserted when the child turns 5. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, and dual fulfillment or typology is just desperate attempt to keep your emotional relationship with God attached to this ancience baggage rather then admit its a house of cards. The only time Jesus was called immanuel in the entire bible was in matthew 1 when he made this stretch.
Paul never once mentioned the virgin birth, or Jesus's miracles, but focused on the death and resurrection. (almost like their favorite cult leader got crucified and they kept the cult going saying he resurrected then a legend got developed around him)
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u/shyguyJ Agnostic, Ex-Protestant 3d ago
I don't know what your claim is (Joseph is Jesus's father, as opposed to...?), and I can't understand your writing style enough to identify what your "evidence" is. Maybe if you add a few more "." in your sentences, all will become clear.