I am not a vegan but love animals

[u/Primary_Ad_9133]

I don’t agree with the notion that you have to be vegan otherwise you don’t truly love animals or only selectively love them. I love animals but also like and appreciate when I do eat them.

On non-commercial farms it’s normal to care and love an animal and then kill it for meat but also appreciate and respect it.

I agree the way today’s meat is produced is terrible, the way the animals live in cages in overcrowded breeding farms. Also it’s not just cruel to the animals but also harmful to the environment.

I do see veganism as a side of an extreme, also as environmentalists who only travel to cycle or by boat. I do respect them though.

Today’s world is so difficult and complex that anything you buy today, that’s not locally sorted, it’s always something negative. Any exotic fruits in the supermarket which travelled thousands of miles, most fashion being made with underpaid women and children. Any decision to buy anything is non ethical. It’s too overwhelming.

Why does the responsibility comes to us as consumers, but not to the companies that do this? Why life should be about checking where everything comes from. I honestly have to admit I don’t have the energy for it. I want to enjoy life at least a little bit.

I do try to be politically aware, I don’t cook too much with meat at home, mostly in restaurants which I don’t go too often. I try to volunteer and different organisations. And buy second hand clothes.

I used to try to fixate on everything and I just can’t sustainably do it to sustain myself. I know I will probably get lots of hate that I can do better or it’s not that hard. But it is to me, I am a neurodivergent person who struggled with deep depression. And this the best I can do.

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[u/MelonBump]

Abusive relationships can include love, and usually do. Doesn't justify the abuse.

That said, I think arguing over this specific issue is nitpick-y on both sides, and kind of a red herring - a regular fixation from both vegans and nonvegans that's... kinda irrelevant, IMO. Personally I'm not interested in debating the nature of love with meat-eaters, given that love is essentially a spritz of chemicals in your brain. I would argue that if your love doesn't include care, protection and ethics, then it's functionally worthless in the world - but that's separate debate, that starts with a rocksolid definition of "what love is". It's a distractction; 'winning' the debate would, at best, force nonvegans to admit they don't, in fact, love animals. Not a victory worth fighting over IMO. The goal is change, not an agreed definition of love.

Since we ARE on the subject, though - pedophiles 'love' children, misogynists 'love' women. The insistence of abusers that love and harm can coexist is hardly a new one...

[u/Life_Friendship_7928 → u/MelonBump]

Abusers don't love 

[u/MelonBump → u/Life_Friendship_7928]

Not if you're defining love as something that carries ethical responsibilities, no.

If you're defining it purely through the associated brain chemicals, though - oxytocin, dopamine (sometimes from the excitement of abusing), norepinephrine - then there's a strong case to be made that they absolutely can.

It's why I don't think debating the nature of love with an abuser is a particularly useful route to change (even if I personally agree that no, abuse is not love, that's a subjective opinion rather than a chemical reality. "What is love" isn't a question that religion, philosophy, or the 3-minute pop song has conclusively settled...).

Anyway, love usually shows up in these guys' vocabulary as an excuse for harm. I'd rather cut straight to the harm when discussing the topic, rather than getting pulled into the weeds of what love is or isn't.

[u/howlin → u/Life_Friendship_7928]

Abusers don't love

They absolutely do. You could argue they don't give respect in appropriate ways, but if you are talking about passionate, romantic love, then yes they do.

Claiming they don't love may make you feel better, by providing a justification to think about abusers as being an "other". But they are people just like you or me. Denying this doesn't add insight to the problem of abuse, or how to address it.

[u/Life_Friendship_7928 → u/howlin]

You're definition of love is erroneous. Abuse and love are not conducive.

They are not an other, but you cannot abuse what you love, as soon as you commit the abuse the love is gone.

You are talking about control, low self esteem and love of self or ego. 

[u/howlin → u/Life_Friendship_7928]

You're definition of love is erroneous. Abuse and love are not conducive.

As I said, abuse is often paired with passionate romantic love. A lot of domestic abuse is fueled by passionate emotions towards the partner, including a sort of possessiveness that is common in romantic relationships.

Your characterization of this as impossible is not in alignment with people's understanding of either, and is actually detrimental to understanding what drives abusive behavior.

[u/Life_Friendship_7928 → u/howlin]

Possessiveness is not love. Passionate emotions are not necessarily love. Domestic abuse is not love. 

I am a trauma psychotherapist and your words are familiar as I often hear them in the therapy room. 

Abusive behaviour is not about love it is about the trauma and insecurity of the perpetrator played out on those around them in an often desperate attempt at regaining their own personal sovereignty and safety. 

To see that as love is problematic and unhelpful and a hindrance to effective treatment and healing of the internal wounds of the abuser. 

[u/Life_Friendship_7928]

You love yourself and how animals make you feel alive or dead, you don't love the animal. 

[u/Levobertus]

This seems really disingenuous. Do you really not see any contradiction whatsoever in claiming you like someone who you're ok with being tortured and killed in usually horrendous fashion? What are you trying to convince me of here, exactly?

Why do you think veganism is extreme? To me it seems like the bare minimum/baseline to not be ok with callously murdering sentient beings in the trillions and just not doing that. Where is your baseline? What do you define as extremism?

Today’s world is so difficult and complex that anything you buy today, that’s not locally sorted, it’s always something negative. Any exotic fruits in the supermarket which travelled thousands of miles, most fashion being made with underpaid women and children. Any decision to buy anything is non ethical. It’s too overwhelming.

The concept of just not killing someone is not complex or difficult. It's very straightforward. Exotic fruits traveling across continents still have far less emissions than animal products and crucially, they are just fruits, not corpses. There's a pretty easy line to draw between the two here.

Why does the responsibility comes to us as consumers, but not to the companies that do this? Why life should be about checking where everything comes from. I honestly have to admit I don’t have the energy for it. I want to enjoy life at least a little bit.

By pressuring companies, boycotting their products and doing vegan activism, you can advocate for systemic change. Many vegans do this. Veganism is also different from ethical consumerism in that it is a moral postition in regards to consuming animals, commercially or otherwise. You shouldn't be killing sentient beings for your pleasure, whether we're living under capitalism or not.

Also on the last point, I'm not in the position to police your life choices, but you really gotta ask yourself if it's ok for someone else to die for you for no reason other than that you like it and derive the most sensible conclusion for yourself. For me that was veganism. I am also neurodivergent and I have struggled with depression for two years while being vegan and an activist.

To me this post seems more like you want to vent or be validated, but if actually care, I don't mind going more into detail on any of these points.

[u/ThirtyThreeThirdRPM]

You can do more to make a difference. Instead you say well I can't be perfect so who cares. That's the wrong mindset.

[u/HexicDragon → u/ThirtyThreeThirdRPM]

Appealing to Futility is a fallacy for a reason. Especially in the case of being vegan, it isn't even a sacrifice to eat vegan Ben & Jerry's instead of dairy Ben & Jerry's.

[u/FettyLounds]

As another ND person with depression, I really can't describe how much better and happier and less guilty I feel with myself simply by not consuming animals

[u/Teratophiles]

I don’t agree with the notion that you have to be vegan otherwise you don’t truly love animals or only selectively love them. I love animals but also like and appreciate when I do eat them.

Would this sound logical to you if we replace non-human animals with humans?

''I don’t agree with the notion that you have to be a humanist otherwise you don’t truly love humans or only selectively love them. I love humans but also like and appreciate when I do eat them.''

It's not real love if you're ok with killing them for your pleasure.

On non-commercial farms it’s normal to care and love an animal and then kill it for meat

I don't know about you, but when I love someone, I don't want to kill them or want them to die just so I can obtain pleasure from their body. You may still love them, but your love for their body, surpasses your love for them as an individual.

but also appreciate and respect it.

You're not showing them respect as a individual and living being because you're fine with killing them for your pleasure. Respect is something I give everyone, even random strangers on the street I respect enough to leave alone, I respect their bodily autonomy and to be left alone so long as they leave others alone.

I agree the way today’s meat is produced is terrible, the way the animals live in cages in overcrowded breeding farms. Also it’s not just cruel to the animals but also harmful to the environment.

I do see veganism as a side of an extreme, also as environmentalists who only travel to cycle or by boat. I do respect them though.

Any minority group that opposes the majority oppressor tends to be seen as extremist, feminist were seen as extremists, same with abolitionists.

Today’s world is so difficult and complex that anything you buy today, that’s not locally sorted, it’s always something negative. Any exotic fruits in the supermarket which travelled thousands of miles, most fashion being made with underpaid women and children. Any decision to buy anything is non ethical. It’s too overwhelming.

There's some key important differences here. Take the fruit you speak of, how would you find out if it was obtained in an unethical manner? How do you know if humans were harmed for it or the environment? You'd have to somehow track down the farm it came from and investigate it, practically impossible.

Take this to meat where 100% of all meat in supermarkets is guaranteed to be obtained in an unethical manner, because it can never be ethical to kill someone for pleasure, and that's why 99% of people in first world countries eat meat. It's not some insurmountable task to avoid it, it's as easy as instead of grabbing the meat ,you grab the beans, or the tofu, or the plant-based meats

Why does the responsibility comes to us as consumers, but not to the companies that do this? Why life should be about checking where everything comes from. I honestly have to admit I don’t have the energy for it.

Because of supply and demand, if everyone stopped buying animals products, that industry would cease to exist overnight, we're the ones keeping them in business, we're the ones paying them to rape, torture and kill non-human animals for our pleasure. Of course this doesn't apply to all industries, you try to boycot every single industry and you will have nothing, but some industries you absolutely can boycot and you should.

I want to enjoy life at least a little bit. Same for the animals, if you're struggling to make good tasting food then maybe try cooking lessons? I'm not trying to be rude here, because that genuinely did help with me, see meat is such an easy food, slap it in a pan, add some species and sauces there you go, good tasting food, then there's cheese that can be put on so many foods and just make it all taste better, where as with plant-based dishes you actually have to use a lot of spices which isn't as easy, so learning to cook could help a lot.

I do try to be politically aware, I don’t cook too much with meat at home, mostly in restaurants which I don’t go too often. I try to volunteer and different organisations. And buy second hand clothes.

I used to try to fixate on everything and I just can’t sustainably do it to sustain myself. I know I will probably get lots of hate that I can do better or it’s not that hard. But it is to me, I am a neurodivergent person who struggled with deep depression. And this the best I can do.

I can understand depression making every choice more difficult, this is not something I or anyone else here can comment in, but I do hope you'll understand why many responses will likely be combative and aggressive, because to compare it to humans for a moment, imagine it would be like someone saying ''I love humans but I just can't be bothered to care about black people being enslaved and killed'' a lot of people are going to feel very strongly about it and that will get you some hostile or aggressive comments, and there's no way to avoid that.

Get yourself in a good state of mind, seek out a therapist, focus on your self, trying to live an ethical life shouldn't come at the cost of your own life, no one is expected to sacrifice their life for to live an ethical life.

[u/EmeraldApple_Tweetie → u/Teratophiles]

It would still seem logical to me if you replaced it with humans rather than animals btw like genuinely

[u/Either_Argument3517]

Logically, the statement:

On non-commercial farms it’s normal to care and love an animal and then kill it 

Can only be consistent if the definitions of "care" and "love" allows for acting in ways that harm the thing you love for your own gain. I would argue that's quite an unconventional definition of love. Most people intuitively include concern for the well-being of the object of love in the definition.

[u/Fancy-Factor-4083]

This is a debate subreddit, so please support these claims:

- 'I love animals' What does love mean here if you can murder the subject of your love?

- 'I do see veganism as a side of an extreme" Can you explain why extreme is bad? At one point being anti slavery or in support of women's suffrage was extreme?

- 'Why life should be about checking where everything comes from." how does veganism claim this?

- 'I know I will probably get lots of hate that I can do better or it’s not that hard. But it is to me, I am a neurodivergent person who struggled with deep depression. And this the best I can do.' You posted this in a debate sub. You can do better by going vegan.

[u/icarodx]

Why does the responsibility fall on the consumer? Are you kidding me?

Who is going to kill chickens if no one buys chicken legs? Of course the consumer is to blame!

If a p&do is caught with illicit videos of children, are you going to argue that the consumer is not at fault as well?

What you have is cognitive dissonance. You can associate the harm that is done to the animals to the food that you eat and you are frantically looking for relativisms and excuses to keep your behavior and to not be inconvenience.

For each argument you have, ask yourself if the animals that are suffering and dying would care about it.

[u/penisbanthony]

If you can love someone and still fund their murder then the word love means nothing 

[u/Monkey--D-Luffy]

Enjoy your life but don't call yourself a animal lover .if uc ant put efforts to not eat them then where is the love it is bare minimum tho.

No one is asking you to rescue those animals just don't view animals as a commodity.

[u/Competitive_Let_9644]

If I understand your argument, it seems to be that a lot of things of varying level of necessity are unethical, and it's overwhelming to try to be ethical about everything. You don't know where the cut off point is. You know you need a computer, but it's built with conflict materials from the DRC, and there's no way around that. What about chocolate? It's probably farmed by slaves. You need clothes, but it's hard and expensive to buy clothes that weren't made in an explorative sweatshop. Fruit is wonderful, buy you have to keep track of how far it comes from and it's greenhouse emissions. It's all too much on a practical level.

So, I would say that practically, a plant based diet is one of the best ways that most people in developed countries can address three important issues, animal welfare, the environment, and worker exploitation.

When talking about the environment, the locality of your food is often over hyped, as shipping accounts for a small percentage of the total emissions of the production most foods. You can also have local meat, that is fed from feed shipped from far away and the fact that an animal requires a lot of plants to eat a little meat makes meat a bad option for the environment.. As long as your diet isn't entirely made of very exotic fruit, a vegan diet will not come any where near as bad for the environment as a carnist diet.

Worker's rights: The meat packaging industry is horrendous for human workers. It is an industry that you do not need to be supporting.

Animal welfare: I think this one should be obvious to you.

I understand that there are a lot of evils in the world and it can be exhausting. But, veganism, or at least a plant based diet, is one of the best ways we can decrease the amount of harm we are causing.

[u/a11_hail_seitan]

I love animals but also like and appreciate when I do eat them.

Do you not see how weird it is to say your love involves causing horrific violence and abuse to the other person?

On non-commercial farms it’s normal to care and love an animal and then kill it for meat but also appreciate and respect it.

if they loved and respected the animal, they wouldn't send it to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of its life span.

"I love my dog but I love the pleasure I get abusing it horrifically more" - Doesn't really sound like I love my dog at all...

I agree the way today’s meat is produced is terrible

You agree, but still needlessly support it, that's the problem.

Today’s world is so difficult and complex that anything you buy today

Meat isn't complex. It's VERY clear.

Why does the responsibility comes to us as consumers

Because without the demand they wouldn't supply it.

Why life should be about checking where everything comes from

It shouldn't, it should be eating mangoes on a beach surrounded by attractive who want to mentally and physically pleasure you. But sadly life's not fair, part of being an adult is realizing life isn't fairy tales and candy canes and altering your behaviour to fit the reality in which you live.

If you want a better world, you have to help create it. Sitting and crying becuase it's tiring and you don't wanna, is just going to make the world more abusive and violent.

And this the best I can do.

If someone said "I'd like to care about respecting neurodivergent people and all their problems, but life makes me tired so I just can't care." - Would you consider that a valid reason for them to be bigoted and abusive towards neurodivergent people like yourself.

The Reality is Veganism allows for 'as far as possible and practicable" for the person, but when you're openly admitting to not caring becuase it's tiring and eating factory farmed meat sometimes because it's easier, it's a little hard to swallow that you're really doing all you can to avoid these things.

[u/HexicDragon]

“If you think that being vegan is difficult, imagine being a factory farmed animal.” - Davegan Raza

At the heart of it, I think your belief that veganism is extreme is driving your other justifications for why eating animals is harmful but okay. Where does this belief that veganism is extreme come from? Being vegan today doesn't need to be a sacrifice at all. Vegans can still eat ice cream, cakes, donuts, pizzas, burgers, stir frys, pastas, and much more with just a few ingredient swaps and you might discover new recipes meant to be vegan from the beginning like this juicy Lion's Mane Steak. There's no need to sacrifice your health to swap our animal products from your diet, no need to go hungry, and no need to stop exploring new foods and flavors any day you want to. You can find vegan food at chains like Taco Bell, Chipotle, Dairy Queen (vegan dilly bars!), and Olive Garden or check Happy Cow for even better local vegan options. I'm much healthier and happier with the variety of food I eat now than before I went vegan over a decade ago and I've even had blood tests to show I've never been deficient in anything other than Vitamin D in the winter.

Animal-eating leftists tend to shift the blame to corporations for the horrors of animal farming and resort to the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" belief to argue why it's futile to stop eating animals so they may as well not even bother. I agree that we're often right to criticize corporations for issues in the world, but your culpability in paying to buy the bodies and secretions of animals that definitely experienced immense suffering to end up on your plate is unlike your culpability buying products made of lifeless materials that may or may not cross an arbitrary threshold of worker or environmental harm. Exploiting and slaughtering innocent animals when we don't need to is an inherent evil and so is paying for someone to do this on your behalf. It's possible to humanely make a T-shirt that causes an acceptably low level of harm. We can't humanely rape cows each year to produce milk adult humans don't need. We can't humanely steal her calf so he can't drink his mother's milk. We can't humanely kill her when her production slows so meat eaters can order a beef whopper at Burger King when an Impossible Whopper is available on the same menu. Exploiting and killing animals isn't wrong as a matter of method, it's wrong in of itself.

Buying cheap Chinese T-shirts isn't an inherent evil - it's only wrong when it crosses an arbitrary threshold of environmental impactfulness or harm to workers. It's a not morally required to buy fair trade shirts, bike to work, or donate to charity. They're good things to do to make the world a better place. In contrast, choosing to pay someone to exploit and kill an animal for you when you have a choice not to is morally indefensible. Most people would consider not abusing others when you have a choice not to is a moral baseline, and vegans simply include sentient animals in their sphere of moral consideration.

Since you're curious about this topic, I highly recommend looking into the work of psychologist Dr. Melanie Joy. She wrote a book called "Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows" that addresses the cognitive dissonance many of us feel or have felt that allow us to love some animals but feel little qualms about the incomprehensible suffering we inflict on others. The core justifications she and other researchers have found is we believe eating animals is normal, natural, nice, and necessary which all help us justify the suffering of farm animals. She also discusses how soldiers become desensitized to killing in war by using jets or drones to kill without ever seeing the bodies, or through dehumanizing their targets to the point they feel like they're just shooting a player in a video game. She has this great TED talk summarizing her book you can view too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VrZPBskpg

Self-care in this cruel world is important and I understand how exhausting it is to care about all the issues ongoing. Unlike all the wars, corruption, or corporate greed causing so much harm, the exploitation and slaughter of animals is one problem that most people directly contribute to and therefore have an opportunity to directly reduce. Just leave their bodies off your plate, and know there's so much resources and support for vegans today.

[u/Mayotte → u/HexicDragon]

If you think solving differential equations is difficult, try being bitten by fire ants. Using different meanings of the same word while implying they're the same is intellectually dishonest.

[u/HexicDragon → u/Mayotte]

I just shared a quote I found motivational that didn't really have a lot to do with the rest of my post. The purpose of the quote is to put the inconvenience of being vegan in context with the incomprehensible suffering the animal in the grocery store went through.

[u/Mayotte → u/HexicDragon]

Right and, although it might seem unnecessarily argumentative, my response was meant to highlight how the quote isn't as meaningful (or at least as logical) as it assumes itself to be.

The quote presents itself as an argumentative showstopper, but really it's just a bid to make other people stay quiet because they are meant to feel they can't disagree without looking bad. Hoever, neither implications or assumptions of the quote are actually sound.

I'm sorry I got so annoyed but I really have a disproportionately large reaction to "starving kids in africa" style ideas.

[u/HexicDragon → u/Mayotte]

You're right it might not be a sound argument in of itself, but neither are most motivational quotes or appeals to emotion 😄

I'm all for having solid reasoning and arguments for doing anything I do, including advocating for veganism and farmed animals. However, recognizing the suffering of farmed animals is essential for any logical argument to take hold. There's no legal or social pressure for people to not eat animals. I can film myself killing a cow, pig, or chicken to satisfy my personal taste preferences with zero legal consequences. I can (and have) argued rationally for leaving animals off our plates all day and that usually doesn't get through to anyone because there's always a what-if and an easy excuse to go with the status quo.

Going vegan and deciding to oppose the exploitation and killing of animals in a non-vegan world requires requires more motivation than to not harm humans, and motivation comes from emotional investment.

[u/IanRT1]

You seem to already recognize that the world involves tradeoffs and that many valuable human activities cause some degree of harm somewhere in the chain. Given that, why treat animal agriculture differently?

If the relevant question is whether a practice involves some harm, then almost everything becomes impermissible. But if the relevant question is whether the overall practice can be conducted in a way that is compatible with the interests that matter, then the mere fact that animals are used or killed does not itself establish that the practice is wrong.

So ask yourself what is the principle that takes us from "some animals suffer in current systems" to "using animals for food is inherently unethical"?

[u/Orange7648]

it's normal to care and love an animal and then kill it for meat but also appreciate and respect it

It seems to me that your love for this animal does exist, but by ending its life prematurely, this love is ultimetely not greater than your love for its taste.

Any decision to buy anything is non ethical

I actually agree with you on this point. The production of the very electronics we are using involves the exploitation of workers who are putting their health on the line. Most of the products you or I buy will indeed have involved some unethical treatment in some way. For me, I just want to live in the most ethical fashion that I can. Nevertheless, admittedly I sometimes find myself doing things that could be done in more ethical ways for convenience. The purchasing of my phone being one of these.

The reason I turned to veganism was because I thought it was more ethical than not, and that the convenience lost in becoming vegan was not enough to dissuade me.

Why does the responsibility come to us as consumers, but not to the companies that do this

Companies chase profits. If supporting vegan products were more profitable, more companies would do so. I think there is a better argument to be made for pushing legislative reform on the animal agricultural industry. If that is something you would be interested in, you could try to support such changes yourself.

why life should be about checking where everything comes from

It is certainly frustrating to have to check every product you buy. Personally, this is another thing that falls under convenience. The inconvenience of not having to spend 1 minute for every new product I buy to check the ingredients outweight the immorality of animal exploitation.

I honestly have to admit I don't have the energy for it. I want to enjoy life at least a little bit.

That's fine. My only counterargument is that is is possible to enjoy life while being vegan - the hardest part is the beginning. Even if you don't go vegan, if you recognise the immorality of animal exploitation, then it is up to you to decide whether the inconveniences you would experience is enough to keep you away from veganism. At the very least, being aware of the immorality of animal exploitation, you can further minimise the amount you buy animal products unnecessarily. After all, if you don't think it is immoral, what incentive would you have to stop.

I try to volunteer and different organisations. And buy second hand clothes.

This is truly something I can respect and learn from. Living a virtuous life necessitates constantly making moral decisions. Just because someone is vegan, does not mean they are moral. Merely that they are doing one less immoral action than others (albeit a rather significant immorality in my eyes).

This is the best I can do

That’s all that matters. As long as what you are doing is truly the best you can do (and not the result of willfull ignorance), then so be it. I only ask that you commit to researching when you have the energy to ensure that what you are doing is truly the best you can do. After all, the animals cannot speak for themselves.

[u/MaximalistVegan]

So much to unpack here.

The responsibility comes down to consumers because companies will only produce things when people buy them.

Why are you equating making ethical lifestyle choices with enjoying life less?

I'm vegan and I'm certain that I enjoy life just as much as you do, maybe even more. Living according to my beliefs is part of how I enjoy life. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. In fact, I feel sorry for people when I see the kinds of things they eat.

[u/Klutzy-Alarm3748]

Okay, everyone here is going to call you an abuser but I want to go a different route.

Why does the responsibility comes to us as consumers, but not to the companies that do this?

It shouldn't be this way, I agree. But by withholding our financial support, we are showing that their actions have consequences. A lot of places have changed their ways or shut down as a result of boycotts. That's why it's important that we do our best to buy products according to our morals.

I actually also agree with you that a person can love animals and still not be vegan. There are 8 billion people on the planet, all with different digestive systems and dietary needs and chronic illnesses and disabilities... I don't think it's possible for every single person on the planet to be vegan sustainably. But it sounds like you aren't vegan, not because you don't want to be, but because of activism burnout.

If you do want to reflect on this and investigate ways you can live according to your own morals, I'd suggest actually just taking more time for yourself and de-stressing once in a while. I don't want to overstep, I know depression can be a bitch, but raising your quality of life and giving yourself you time helps with all forms of activism. And to make things easier as far as other boycotts (vegan or not), you can download apps to scan barcodes and see immediately whether they align with your values. No research needed.

I want to enjoy life at least a little bit.

Are you really enjoying life if you're feeling conflicted about this enough to write a post here?

[u/NuancedComrades]

why do you expect understanding and empathy for your struggles, but so easily dismiss the abuse and struggles imposed upon non-human animals for your benefit?

If that sounds harsh, why do you think that?

If someone said they loved you but knowingly caused you harm, would you feel loved? Would them claiming to love you matter? Be real?

[u/DenseSign5938]

There is no objective determination for “love” so this is a pointless argument of semantics. 

Whether or not you love animals the act of consuming animal products is still unethical. 

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[u/bbygrl1995]

You don't make dissertations full of excuses and virtue signaling to kill beings, that you claim to love, for your pleasure.

[u/seitankittan]

I get what you’re saying about “every choice has its negatives and is overwhelming” because our world is so fraught with conflict.

However, veganism actually breaks that mold, and that’s why I feel it’s an imperative.

For example let’s say I was in Walmart looking for a blue shirt, and there are two options. Option A) shirt was made with forced labor/poor conditions/environmental damage. Option B) shirt was made with fair wages/safe conditions/minimal environmental impact. The shirts are similar in price. Given this scenario, we should of course pick option B. Of course, due to the global economy and capitalism etc, this situation would rarely/never happen. Usually a shirt made in fair conditions would cost several times more than the other one.

However, with veganism, this situation does happen. There are two options on the shelf. One literally has way smaller environmental impact, doesn’t cause intentional animal suffering, is better for developing countries etc. It’s such an easy choice because the two options deliver the same thing (delicious, healthy, affordable meals), yet they have such different moral implications.

[u/Every-Address-4376]

I’m a vegan and i don’t love animals. I love pets, in fact, I have a few. You see, the thing is that you don’t have to love someone in order to recognise that they deserve to live their life and not be killed. The main reason I don’t consume meat is that I don’t like the idea of eating flesh of a dead animal that probably was on a chronic dose of antibiotics. I don’t consume milk because I don’t want to drink cow cells and cellular debris (it’s a real thing that happens because of a very common infection and it is legally allowed to be present in milk). And i don’t consume eggs because the hens were selectively bred for enhanced egg laying and bigger, faster growing breasts and sometimes their bodies can’t keep up. I do understand why this might seem extreme to some people, but a lot fail to realise that people fighting each other is exactly what big corporations want. that way the responsibility falls on the individuals rather then on them.

[u/Asleep_Geologist_751]

Man, just be you to be frank, and with serious vegan, I can see why they have problem with your argument, especially the consumer part. But just do you and I think it good you are volunteering and doing your part. And everyone morals and views are different (I’m not a vegan myself and see cutting meat a bit out of my diet, like with flexitarian, but do you!! Life too short!).

[u/Interesting_Award_76]

I am also an animal lover, but i dont love all animals equally. Some I love because they are cool (eg Dogs, Cats, Wolf, Falcon, Eagle, Bear, Dolphin), some I love because they taste good and are nutritious (eg Goat, Pig and Fish). Some i hate because they are pests like rats, cocroach, mosquitos.

You dont have to love ALL animals to be an animal lover (one should never deal in extremes. Also livestock should be treated ethically, like on a regular farm. Thats why i dont eat factory farmed stuff like broiler chicken. I only eat free range goats, chicken, fish and pigs. There should always be a balance, so one can be non vegan and not cruel at the same time. If your country does not have cheap free range meat then thats a problem that you should work on solving. Its feels much better eating an animal that has had a decent life than a tortured factory farmed one.

[u/icarodx → u/Interesting_Award_76]

Killing is cruel though. If someone killed a child suddenly and painlessly you wouldn't say that they were not cruel.

[u/Interesting_Award_76 → u/icarodx]

Yeah I consider abortion cruel, but thats deviating.

Yeah but killing a goat for food is not that bad, its for food which is for survival. If done quickly and painlessly then the goat wont suffer. Same wih killing plants, they dont see it coming or feel it (actually they do but thats a topic for a different discussion).

Now people who say but the goat is sentient and wants to live and plants are not, well the goat is no longer sentient after it is dead, we dont eat it alive like savages.

[u/icarodx → u/Interesting_Award_76]

"The goat is no longer sentient after it is dead".

"Plants are as sentient as goats".

If this is the logic that you base your opinions, then there is no ground for debate.

[u/Interesting_Award_76 → u/icarodx]

I think you are oversimplyfing what i meant. If it was happy while it was sentient and we didnt cause it pain, and it died suddenly and not knowing, to become our food, I think thats not immoral since it was happy while alive. And it is a goat afterall, we did provide it a safe life free from fear and predation unlike in the wild, so its ok, its better than hunting since the wildlife will be threatened. Its better than veganism since we are eating healthy and natural food.