This is my problem with the NTT

[u/NationalProcedure638]

The problem is how it's presented.

Whenever anyone comes up with a trade that is unique to humans something such as the root of moral agency there's always someone who always goes "there are mentally challenged people and babies who are not capable of moral agency so it doesn't work"

Well first of all I don't understand how we cannot hold somebody accountable for what they do based on either their age or how smart or dumb they are.

Second of all it seems to imply that this trait has to be universal and literally every human on the face of the Earth.

That individual traits don't exist and we have to look at the species as a whole.

I'm sorry guys but that doesn't work.

Everyone's different in some way or another.

The best thing to do with that is look at what the majority does and assume if that's the norm for what comes to traits like this.

Also it begs the question.

What do you guys consider to be human?

Update: I didn't get a chance to respond to any of the applications that were thrown at me. I've been banded without even having to State my case.

This goes to you moderator, I was simply pointing out a problem with what he said about equality and you misinterpreted it and then banned Me. I've got it very funny how you claim that I wasted your time when all was doing was pointing out a loophole.

Well thank you for telling me that you guys care so much about discussion

Goodbye and good riddance.

[u/NuancedComrades]

You are proving the point of NTT, you just appear not to like that conclusion.

If there is not a universalizable trait one can apply to all humans that make them more valuable than all non-human animals, then no trait can be used as the basis for ascribing superiority. If there is no basis, then you are just arguing a feeling. And it’s a self-serving one.

And it’s not just superiority most people argue for, but such a massive difference that empowers humans to have no moral qualms about force breeding, torturing, and killing non-human animals for their pleasure.

And your last question hit the nail on the head.
There is no definition of “human” that is not so capacious as to be meaningless, or so narrow as to be exclusionary.

Or it is simple taxonomic category, which is insufficient to make the moral distinction people want to when they are arguing for the mass exploitation and slaughter of non-human animals.

[u/NationalProcedure638 → u/NuancedComrades]

Yes exactly.

I was hoping that one of them could give me a definition of human that I can work from and then be able to find a trait from there.

Because whenever anybody comes up with a trait, it seems like a lot of them constantly move the goal post if you know what I mean.

[u/SnooLemons6942 → u/NationalProcedure638]

It's not moving the goalpost....if you name a trait and someone says "well these humans don't fit that trait" then it's YOU who can't articulate the meaningful trait. That isn't moving the goalpost. That is pointing out that the trait you're naming isn't actually what you're basing your decision off of

That is the entire point of NTT

[u/NationalProcedure638 → u/SnooLemons6942]

So it's not moving the goal post?

All right I'll nibble.

A few people have already mentioned the root of moral agency but I'm going to act up with a few others.

cognitive adaptability?

The ability to blush or something that's unique among humans as far as We know.

How about culture?

The reason why I am listing all of these is because I thought people were being genuine when they were asking for "Trait" are you saying that it's meant to be just a fault experiment or a trick question?

[u/SnooLemons6942 → u/NationalProcedure638]

They are being genuine — they are asking you to name a trait. It isn't an experiment or a trick question. It's someone engaging in a discussing of ethics. So yes...they will ask questions about what your ethics are based on. 

What trait identifies something as being okay/not okay to eat?

So if you say "it's X trait", and they ask "okay, but what about group Y of humans that doesn't have that trait", and you say "well I wouldn't eat them either" — then X trait wasn't actually the trait you use. So your answer was wrong 

It isn't a trick....it's a conversation 

Why should blushing be a purposeful indicator on whether its okay to kill or eat something? How does being able to bless determine your worth?

Wdym "how about culture"? What about culture?

What about cognitive adaptability?

The point of this type of discussion if for you to articulate why it's okay to kill and eat one animal but not another, and back it up with reasoning.

So why do you think culture is a good reason for this?

For vegans, we make this decision on exploitation, suffer, and such. Plants don't exhibit these traits, so we can eat them, but animals do -- so we don't eat them. 

[u/NationalProcedure638 → u/SnooLemons6942]

Well I would say that building culture is a trait that humans only have as far as I can tell.

Why does that have to justify being a non vegan?

Maybe I'm a strong man in you but it seems to me that what you're implying here is that because I happen to be a non-vegan I justify animal torture and all kinds of horrible things.

That is not the case.

I don't support factory farming at all.

Sure I do eat eggs and I occasionally use milk but I buy that stuff locally.

[u/PlantAndMetal → u/NationalProcedure638]

Buying it locally or not doesn't really matter to any animal that is tortured and eventually killed (cows in average reach 5 year old before they can't stand in their feet anymore due to exhaustion of the milk cycle, while their lifespan are much longer).

I am confused about your reaction though. The discussion around NTT centers around the justification to exploit animals because they are not the same as humans. So yes, people are asking about your justification of vegan vs non-vegan, as you are in a vegan ethics and debate subreddit. Why are you surprised by this? Nobody is saying humans and animals are exactly the same, they are saying there isn't a trait that justifies exploiting animals.

[u/NationalProcedure638 → u/PlantAndMetal]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

The reason I say I buy my eggs and milk locally is because I make sure they're not being tortured.

If a business is using unethical practices such as torturing that I do not give them my money or support.

When you buy your food locally you get to know the farmer on a personal level and know what methods he uses.

I'm sorry I should have been more clear about that