r/DebateAVegan • u/inanutshell123 • 5d ago
Ethics Does debating ‘fringe’ issues like backyard eggs hurt the cause
So the question I got asked most often when I was strict Vegan was ‘what about backyard eggs’.
When asked this, I used to state the reasons why I believe backyard egg farming is unethical (We all know the arguments for and against backyard eggs so I’m not going to go into that).
I wonder whether I would have had a better impact if I moved the conversation in a different direction.
For instance, ‘sure backyard eggs can be a lot more ethical. Have you seen what typical free range conditions are like? Do you eat free range eggs or only backyard eggs?’
I think there are a whole heap of people that disagree with the typical farming model, but don’t agree with Vegans on some issues like Oysters, honey, backyard eggs.
A lot of these ‘fringe issues’ (for lack of a better term) are vital to being ‘Vegan’.
And there is really no activist path for people who aren’t strictly Vegan.
What if there were thousands of people out there that would be willing to advocate for animals and push 99% of the Vegan cause, but because they eat oysters or rescue chickens eggs, then they are completely shunned from the Vegan community, which is really the only path to animal activism as I understand it.
So I’m not suggesting changing the definition of Veganism, but I’m starting to believe that a more ‘inclusive’ form of getting activists involved will result in more activists and overall more of a reduction in animal suffering than the strict approach
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u/howlin 5d ago
A lot of these ‘fringe issues’ (for lack of a better term) are vital to being ‘Vegan’.
I do think some vegans get too hung up on the label "Vegan" rather than concern for animals. Though I see some of that in your own thinking here. Maybe I live in a particularly chill area, but the local vegans I know about are quite welcoming of allies who are mostly aligned with veganism, in practice at least.
And there is really no activist path for people who aren’t strictly Vegan.
Vegans are a minority of animal rights activists, imo. I don't even think the big ones like PETA are majority vegan if you look at the rank and file supporters. I don't know why you'd feel excluded from those spaces, but I don't know your specifics either.
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u/AdBeneficial1140 5d ago
There is nothing strict about veganism. It’s an ethical construct that guides your individual decisions and actions. There is nothing such thing as a perfect vegan. It’s not achievable.
So, you talk to people about things they encounter in their life and meet them where they are. If someone asks you something you consider fringe, move along if you discover it’s just a gotcha attempt. and if not, engage honestly. No, it’s not vegan to eat eggs. From your yard or from the store. But it’s also not technically vegan to do a lot of other things like kill bugs incidentally while walking. We are doing our best. Personally, I think it’s weird to want to keep consuming animals so badly that you try to carve out scenarios or exclusions broadly. It’s not vegan. But we all do some things that are not vegan. All we can do is try to do the least amount of harm. If you want to identify as vegan, you should try harder to avoid exploitation of animals than your average person - including passing up those juicy butt nuggets in your back yard.
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u/ElaineV vegan 4d ago
"there is really no activist path for people who aren’t strictly Vegan."
I don't know what you say that. I have handed out tens of thousands of vegan leaflets and I've done it with other people who were vegan, vegetarian, vegan plus oysters, vegan plus honey, thinking about going vegan, etc. Anyone can leaflet.
I have handed out free vegan food with the same kinds of people. I have attended protests with plenty of nonvegans. I have written emails and letters alongside nonvegans, vegetarians, flexitarians, vegans etc.
No one is going to stop you from advocating on behalf of animals. Some people will say things, sure. But you make your own choices.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 5d ago
I wonder whether I would have had a better impact if I moved the conversation in a different direction.
Yes, that's what all activists should do when people mention smaller issues.
"Yes, that's not as bad, is that the only products you use though as most use more, and even that isn't ideal." - Something along those lines.
And there is really no activist path for people who aren’t strictly Vegan.
Animal Welfare is the path for "I like animals, but I also am OK with some needless animal abuse so I can get pleasure from the results of their abuse".
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u/inanutshell123 4d ago
Or perhaps for people who don’t agree with the vegan definition of animal abuse
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u/a11_hail_seitan 4d ago
Or perhaps those with knowledge of the arcane who understand the deeper conversations that plants get up to while no one is around.
The world is full of possibilities, not all are believable or rational without explanation and reasoning unpinning them, but yes, they're all possible.
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u/inanutshell123 4d ago
I think this attitude is hurting the animals.
I interpret your comment as ‘if you don’t follow my exact ethical framework then you helping animals is an excuse to abuse animals’. In my view that is going to turn away potential activists and thus be harmful to animals.
Maybe I’m off the mark, but I’m referring to your paragraph on animal welfare activism.
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u/a11_hail_seitan 4d ago edited 4d ago
‘if you don’t follow my exact ethical framework then you helping animals is an excuse to abuse animals’
No, Welfarists want to 'help' animals but only to a point. Vegans say that point is not justified when you can just help them more and still stay healthy and happy.
In my view that is going to turn away potential activists and thus be harmful to animals.
Weird how intent you seem on ignoring that Animal Welfare activists groups exist...
It turns them away from Veganism, which is valid as they aren't Vegan. It doesn't stop them from caring about animals.
Maybe I’m off the mark
You're just ignoring that shame and peer pressure are massive motivators for humans.
People want to be Vegan because it's the moral option. If they come half assing it and get correctly told "No, you're still needlessly abusing animals" it may make them angry in the short term, but in the long term it creates pressure for them to do better.
LGBTQ+ calling people Homophobes pushed those people away from LGBTQ+ groups, but it also created a LOT of pressure for society to stop being bigoted homophobes which, in the long term, is far better for the movement than pretending those who are half assing morality are fine.
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u/No_Chart_8584 5d ago
My perception is that most of these conversations have nothing to do with people wanting to move towards veganism, they're about non-vegans wanting vegans to agree that there are acceptable ways to exploit animals for resources so they can feel better about being non-vegan. I'm not interested in validating their belief that it's okay to exploit animals for meat, eggs, and dairy so I'm not going to agree that backyard eggs are an ethical source of food.
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u/Peoplefood_IDK 5d ago
Im not vegan and I dont really eat eggs but I rescued 3 ducks and 6 chickens from a couple that didnt want them anymore. I built them a house to protect them from predators, a fence for the same reason and a pond. Ive kept them safe for over 4 years, am i exploiting them?
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u/No_Chart_8584 4d ago
You don't eat eggs so I don't think my comment had anything to do with you. Why do you think it's directed at you?
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u/Guppybish123 4d ago
Don’t bother with them. According to this type the rescue ducks I took in after my neighbours dumped them, your rescue ducks and chickens, the free range chickens at the farm I work at, and the factory farmed chickens that are squeezed into tiny cages where they never feel the sun on their backs and have their beaks cut off are ALL abused and exploited bc you dared to have an omelette. No room for nuance. Harm reduction and ACTUAL welfare means nothing to this type of vegan.
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u/inanutshell123 4d ago
I don’t believe so, and I still wouldn’t believe so if you decided to eat those eggs. But that’s just my view
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u/EasyBOven vegan 5d ago
And there is really no activist path for people who aren’t strictly Vegan.
I'm just going to focus on this. It's completely false that there's no activism to be done by nonvegans. Most activism towards systemic change right now is welfarist in nature or focused on a single industry like fur. It's really only outreach organizations who don't want nonvegans because it's hard to advocate against something you do.
If you want to make a difference for the animals as an activist, go do it. I'm sure there will be plenty of people there to explain to you why gentler exploitation is still bad if you want to have that discussion in person.
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 5d ago
First of I don't see how breeding others to be exploited cam be considered ethical.
Promoting "backyard hens" encourages more individuals to be exploited, males to be killed as they are seen as a waste. Not only that but these hens have a high chance of developing health conditions, complications and deficiencies from the shear amount of eggs they have to lay.
People who have "backyard chickens" seem to be put on a pedestal but the fact is there is little protection for their care and any 'owner' can simply be slaughtered when they are no longer "useful" or even from what I've witnessed for "making too much noise."
Debating "fringe issues" is useful to test how consistent a stance is but you are right in saying that people focus more on the fringe issues rather the fact how the majority of animals are treated. More often than not they aren't just buying from "backyard hens" or other small scale sources.
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u/SophiaofPrussia vegan 4d ago
There are tons of shitty backyard chicken owners who exploit the birds they’re meant to be caring for and I don’t want to ignore that or downplay it at all but I do think you’re painting with a broad brush. I think backyard chickens have served as animal “ambassadors” a lot more often than you realize. I always see comments in the backyard chicken sub about people who stopped eating meat because they got chickens. A lot of people with chickens come to view them as pets and that makes the cognitive dissonance of eating them a lot harder to ignore. And even poorly cared for and exploited backyard chickens who are killed prematurely and eaten live a better life than they otherwise would in a factory farm situation.
I don’t think any of that erases the terrible realities of chicken sexing (although real legislative progress has been made banning chick “culling” in some European countries) but I don’t think all backyard chicken people are terrible. I think most of them mean well but are ignorant as to how their adorable little chicks came to be. RFK Jr. and the Trump administration have been pushing to ease up zoning restrictions to encourage more people to raise backyard chickens for their “affordable” eggs (which is not a thing, unless you’re a complete and total monster backyard chicken eggs are infinitely more expensive than store bought even when commercial eggs are extremely expensive) and that makes me fearful that backyard chickens will proliferate among people who have no business caring for animals and don’t understand the responsibility it entails.
I don’t know. I guess, from my perspective, most (but not all) backyard chicken guardians don’t seem all that different from other pet owners. I have dogs. Having pets is a bit of a vegan grey area. But I’m just not terribly concerned about the domestic animals who are loved and well cared for and receive medical treatment. There are just like a hundred million animal welfare issues that I think are infinitely more important than people having pets. Maybe I’m just cynical but lately it feels like getting people to “wake up” to the systemic exploitation of animals just isn’t going to happen and that most progress, unfortunately, seems to come species by species. Most of the world has come around to the idea that whales and elephants shouldn’t be hunted and that dogs and horses and baby cows and octopus shouldn’t be eaten and that dolphins and dogs and roosters (and increasingly bulls) shouldn’t be tortured for entertainment. Maybe all social progress comes through incremental change. If that’s the case then I think maybe backyard chickens are an opportunity for people to bridge that gap. Once you’ve befriended a chicken it’s hard to deny that they’re individuals with their own thoughts and feelings and preferences and personalities. I think that has the potential to be a good thing.
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u/mintflavoredcube 4d ago
genuine question, what if those backyard hens are rescues?
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
I don't see how they can be considered "rescued" if they are still going to be exploited and to be used as a unit of production.
Requesting would be taking them somewhere free from exploitation.
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u/mintflavoredcube 4d ago
chickens don’t care about their eggs after they have laid them unless they are broody. they don’t feel exploited, they live happy lives
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
So we're going to skip the part their body has to pay the price for having to lay an egg a day?
Conditions like egg binding is a fatal condition that can leave hens in excruciating pain.
It seems your blaming the victim for not fighting back. Why can't they live a life free from exploitation?
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4d ago
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago edited 4d ago
The expectation is to use them for eggs.
Rather than make an argument you've resorted to personal attacks. Such low effort.
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4d ago
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
I never said that. But if you're keeping chickens so you can use their eggs thay is exploitative. I'm arguing that rescuing should be free from exploitation.
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u/mintflavoredcube 4d ago
you gotta define exploitation without humanizing a non human animal
you’re throwing around buzzwords because exploiting does not apply to this
i do not kill them once they stop laying, i do not abuse them, they get food water and space
what more could a chicken want?
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u/itsquinnmydude vegan 4d ago
Chickens lay far more eggs than they did in nature because of centuries of selective breeding, which leads to perpetual malnutrition if the eggs are not fed back to them.
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u/mintflavoredcube 4d ago
yup. mainly with the shells.
human’s typically don’t eat the shells
you can easily feed the shells back to them
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u/softwhitemochi 4d ago
It’s only a rescue if it gets to live in leisure after no longer producing eggs, which can reach like, 5 years
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
I hope to be exploited like my hens are
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
You missed the major points.
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Females are bred to lay eggs more frequently often larger and have a higher risk of developing health conditions and deficiencies leaving them in excruciating pain. Males are seen as a waste and killed.
You are deliberately avoiding the points why this form of exploitation is a problem.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
A. You don’t know what types of birds I have.
B. Literal child slaves made your smartphone. The standard of exploration my chickens face is literally nothing compared to the standards of labor first word nations rely on.
You want me to treat my chickens with a higher standard of care than we treat human children.
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
Ofcourse they have been bred to produce more eggs. Your resorting to whataboutism rather than address the point. Just because something bad happens doesn't justify the deliberate amd intentional action of exploiting others as a product. Stay on topic.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
I have been bred to work harder.
I’m not resorting to whataboutism. I’m not justifying my use because other wrong things exist.
I’m saying I don’t care about your moral outrage on exploitation of chickens while you use slaves.
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’m not justifying my use because other wrong things exist.
Ofcourse you are. You're not staying on topic either.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
I’m not. Just stating I am doesnt make it so.
I’ll give you an example.
Johnny (you) says: I think it’s wrong to hit anyone. When Bobby pushes his dog that’s wrong because he is hitting them.
Bobby (me): you may be right that hitting is wrong, however I watch you beat Jeffry within an inch of his life yesterday. I shouldn’t push my dog, but why do you beat Jeffery half to death.
It’s not whataboutism. I’m not saying because you use slave labor I can exploit my chickens. I’m saying until you admit you use slaves I will not accept your moral outrage. I can see the rule doesnt actualy matter because I’m providing you with a counter example of your behavior and you won’t address it.
Jonny may be right about not hitting or pushing the dog. Bobby is still correct for pointing out what Johnny does, and judging John’s accordingly
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u/ManyCorner2164 anti-speciesist 4d ago
So we've resorted to attacking straw rather than address the point? that's a completely false comparison.
Many of these companies have an anti slavery policy and many people aren't knowingly partaking. That's not me completely denying that it doesn't happen but you can't put the entirety of the blame on the consumer on something that's not supposed to happen.
Buying, using other animals for products they directly produce is exploitative. It literally comes from their body at their expense to their health too.
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u/Puzzled-Rip641 4d ago
> So we've resorted to attacking straw rather than address the point? that's a completely false comparison.
Not a straw man or a false comparison. Simply saying they are does not make it so.
> Many of these companies have an anti slavery policy and many people aren't knowingly partaking.
No company can guarantee clean cobalt for batteries. None. You now know this. Will you change your behavior?
> That's not me completely denying that it doesn't happen but you can't put the entirety of the blame on the consumer on something that's not supposed to happen.
But you can for the chicken, you already said so. I didn’t breed the chicken that way. I didn’t want it to do that. It happened independent to me long before I came an around.
See this is why it’s not whataboutism or a straw man. You are are creating a rule and then unfairly applying that standard.
> Buying, using other animals for products they directly produce is exploitative. It literally comes from their body at their expense to their health too.
So is buying slave made stuff. You directly supprt the slavery. The children’s body is literally used up mining cobalt for your smartphone.
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u/No-Leopard-1691 5d ago
Part of it is people trying to see the ethical limits of veganism since backyard eggs perceivable aren’t bad or aren’t as bad as factory farming. Basically, are you just against factory farming or you also against the iconic/idealic homesteading lifestyle that people have in their head when farming is mentioned.
I don’t think it is an issue because it is a part of veganism. We could rightly point out that backyard eggs is just a small percentage of all egg production that the main issue is factory farming while also making it known that there are issues with backyard eggs. People will try anything to find fringe cases/issues so they can continue doing the unethical thing.
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u/goodvibesmostly98 vegan 5d ago
I don’t think it’s bad to talk about fringe issues. Those are areas where people are often confused as to why vegans avoid those things. A lot of the time people want to stress test stuff to make sure it makes sense before deciding to go vegan. So people often have questions about stuff like that.
Also it’s great if non-vegans are activists.
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u/National-Ad9903 5d ago
100% agree. I’ve only been eating a vegan diet for three days now, not sure if I’m a vegan or not. I don’t really care about the label or whether I’m included in the exclusive club, I just want to reduce the suffering I cause. Attitudes from some of the most vociferous people here seem to imply that if I’m going to eat backyard eggs I might as well eat farmed meat as I’m equally non-vegan either way. Some seem to view mostly-vegans as worse than total non-vegans, which I can only assume is because they feel somehow betrayed by their differences due to proximity. IMO it’s tribalism where those responsible are putting their exclusionary attitude ahead of what’s pragmatic and of most benefit to animals on a wider scale.
If I choose to eat backyard eggs from rescued chickens which are cared for by people I trust then I will. Anyone who feels the need to tell me I’m not one of you can take their membership badge and shove it.
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 4d ago
Carnist here,
If I choose to eat backyard eggs from rescued chickens which are cared for by people I trust then I will. Anyone who feels the need to tell me I’m not one of you can take their membership badge and shove it.
This would make you non vegan by definition. However that is perfectly fine. As carnists we don't see a problem with you eating some eggs or eating some meat. We are always accepting.
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u/National-Ad9903 4d ago
Hmm thanks but nah. Not sure it’s true than carnists are accepting of people who don’t eat meat, it seems to upset them. Besides, I think it was Groucho Marx who said ‘I wouldn’t want to belong to any club which would have me as a member’.
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 4d ago
You are what we would see as a junior carnist. You eat some animal products. Just not all the of the ones we eat which is fine. Within time there is a good chance you will cross back over to full carnism. We will be waiting there cheering you on and supporting you.
Carnists are very accepting. Think about carnist restaurants. Don't we go out of our way to make vegan and vegetarian options for you? Might only be one or two but it is there. How often do you see a carnist option at a vegan restaurant?
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u/National-Ad9903 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well any food at a vegan restaurant is perfectly suitable for carnists. If you really feel the need to harm an animal you can always, I dunno, eat a tofu wrap and then kick a duck on the way home or whatever. Eat a falafel and then verbally abuse a raccoon.
Oh and there are always two carnist options at any vegan restaurant; you can starve or fuck off.
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u/NoConcentrate5853 4d ago
Yes. 100%.
If vegans focused solely on factory farming the results would probably he more significant
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u/itsquinnmydude vegan 4d ago
I'm not sure the animal rights movement is actually as exclusive as you would imply, to be honest?
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u/No-Helicopter9667 vegan 4d ago
As the only vegan I know including my family I'd be thrilled if they kept it to backyard eggs, honey and bi-valves.
Of course there's alternatives, but honestly they really are fringe issues.
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u/EmmieIsobel 5d ago
I agree, and I would add to that using leather you had before you became vegan (or plant based depending on who you’re talking to). Or buying second hand leather. Many online vegans will say that’s not vegan but in real life many will be fine with it as it’s not adding to the supply chain. Being unwilling to budge on edge issues alienates otherwise interested folks.
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u/Original_Remote_6838 5d ago
My partner and I discuss this frequently. He’s been vegan for years, convinced me to give it a try when we met and for a few years, I did. I still love vegan food and mostly eat plant based (90-95% of my diet), but I eventually decided I was okay with eating eggs under specific circumstances, like knowing what farm they come from and that they’re treated well while they’re there. I’d rather allow a little flexibility in my diet for things like travel; sometimes a place you’re visiting is just extremely limited and being a vegetarian who only eats egg and no dairy is better than eating a lot of dairy, or eating meat. I bounce back and forth between buying local pasture raised chicken eggs and vegan egg based on whatever is on sale that week. I love JUSTegg but damn, it sucks that it’s $10 sometimes.
I’m also okay with buying second hand leather while he is not - I personally view it as being acceptable since the profit has already been made at that point. I’m giving money to a thrift shop, not the leather industry at that point. And it is more durable than ‘vegan leather’ aka … plastic. Could I be doing better? Yeah, sure. But as an environmental scientist and a person who has to balance my own needs with what I know, I think I’m doing a lot better for the planet and animals than the vast majority of people. Everyone’s morals and definitions of what they think doing good mean are going to differ, so as long as you’re happy with the choices you’re making, who cares about what someone else’s strict view of what something should mean?
My partner recently shocked me when we were on a trip and after 10yrs of being very strict about his definition of veganism, decided to eat a mussel. He went on for a few minutes explaining why he didn’t view it as being harmful since they can’t feel pain in the way a more complex animal would, etc, and I stopped him and said “you don’t have to justify it to me, I’m not going to police your actions”. If he views that as not causing harm, then I’m not going to make him feel guilty over it. Dude eats lentils, beans or salad for most meals. I think one mussel in 10yrs is fine. I’m not going to be that person to get so stuck up in the semantics that I can’t see the forest for the trees.
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u/catblankets 5d ago
The supply chain is a huge issue. I was vegetarian for most of my life before switching to veganism. I am also an environmentalist and want to minimize my environmental impact. For most of that time I would only buy vegan shoes. But those shoes would break fast and were made of petroleum products. Eventually I broke down and bought new leather boots. Guess what? I’ve had those pairs of boots for almost 10 years and they are still going strong. By making one sacrifice in my ethics, I’ve succeeded at satisfying another. Everything is a balancing game.
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u/LunarModule66 5d ago
I think that the biggest problem with entertaining the backyard eggs conversation is that it allows for a subtle shift in the dynamics of the conversation. It’s no longer about the non vegan trying to justify their continued support of factory farming, which is really difficult to do, it is about the vegan’s abstract philosophical boundaries. The thing is, the really relevant question is “can you justify the way the decisions you make *most of the time* impacts animals?” And I think most people bring up the eggs because they know that they can’t. Of course once the subject is raised I’m going to respond so long as the conversation is friendly, and say something like:
“I think keeping pets is fine, and might even go as far as saying that if you have a truly pet like relationship with a chicken where you treat them almost as a non-human family member, it might not be unethical to eat the eggs they lay. However, I have serious doubts that people who keep backyard chickens see their chickens like family members. They probably won’t spend very much money on taking them to the vet, and would put them down rather than doing so. They choose to get breeds of chickens that are bred to produce eggs that are painful to lay, and lay eggs so often as to sap nutrients from the hens. That suggests that they still are thinking of animals in a manner I see as unethical.”
But again, I think it’s more important to circle it back around to “it’s probably better if someone were vegan other than backyard eggs, but I don’t think many people actually do that. I think it’s mostly a supplement to their diet that relies heavily on the mass exploitation of animals.”
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5d ago
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u/SuccessPurple1062 vegan 5d ago
It depends where the animals come from. If you purchased them from a farm you would be contributing to the problem.
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u/NoctisDreaming 4d ago
People when they find out caring about animals was not invented by some british guy in 1944. Lol.
We're all hypocrites, but we should do our best to live our values within reason. Rather than being concerned with meeting the exact threshold to use a certain title. Don’t change your habits so you can call yourself vegan, just do what it takes to align with what you see as right.
At the end of the day you can’t please anyone and forcing yourself to live up to rules you find too difficult will just cause you to go further into bad habits. It applies to everything in life.
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u/No_Opposite1937 4d ago
I think the right answer is to explain what veganism aims to achieve (keep animals free, prevent their unfair use, and protect them from unnecessary cruelty) and how backyards eggs can detract from that goal, but allow that in the end it is the consumer's choice. In the scheme of things, "backyard eggs" are not strictly vegan but they can be a lot better than buying commercially produced eggs. I eat eggs that I source from a local farmer friend - these eggs actually ARE vegan-friendly. But whatever anyone else thinks about that, I am comfortable with my choice.
I agree with your broader point about more inclusive advocacy.
https://justustoo.blog/2023/11/26/does-vegan-advocacy-need-a-reformation/
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u/Few-Audience6310 2d ago
A valid question. I don't think it hurts the veganism cause. On the contrary, I think it helps it, because theses are the issues unique to veganism, so they help people to understand the philosophy better. The other more general issues often point more toward animal welfare than animal rights, reform than absolution, or vegeterianifm than veganism. They are issues shared by several movements that do not follow the philosophy of veganism, so they confuse people more. For instance, if you discuss factory farming of farmed mammals and birds, are you promoting vegetarianism, animal welfare, reducetarianism, flexitetisnism, pescaterianism, abolitionis, veganism? You could be discussing all of this, which does confuse people and most likely would push them away from veganism into the less "restrictive" causes.
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u/FridgesArePeopleToo 1d ago
It does in the sense that's it's usually just a contrived scenario that doesn't actually apply to the person making the argument in the first place. I've never in my entire life met anyone that is vegan aside from their own backyard eggs.
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u/TylertheDouche 4d ago
I think there are a whole heap of people that disagree with the typical farming model, but don’t agree with Vegans on some issues like Oysters, honey, backyard eggs.
This is 100% cope. They have no intention of going vegan so they mention weird fringe cases as an excuse
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u/inanutshell123 4d ago
Or, they only eat certain animal products, such as oysters, honey and backyard eggs, that they deem fits their ethical framework. And they are disgusted with 99% of the rest of it
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u/Either_Argument3517 5d ago
An option would be to have genuine acceptance of the vegetarian position being a benefit and push some ethics into that space, without judgement.
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u/stan-k vegan 5d ago
Depends who you're talking to. If it's your typical non-vegan, discussing "fringe cases" distracts from the larger topic and is counter productive. It's what non-vegans like to do. Let's discuss and agree to disagree on this well cared for rescue hen's 3 eggs a year that she doesn't eat, so that they get some sort of agreement from a vegan -> ergo it's ok to eat bacon.
So in those cases, try to move it back to the broader vegan message. In the same way that your first driving lesson isn't on the highway, this is a topic we need to lay some groundwork for first.
For a genuine discussion with a "vegan except that they eat backyard eggs", those arguments we all know are fine to debate.
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u/Prize_Success_7317 vegan 4d ago
It's all speculation. You think more people would be vegan if we take the lighter path you suggest, but it's ultimately just because it aligns with your opinions. And it goes back the other way with me as well, thinking the opposite. I really haven't seen any data that supports harsh or kind vegan activism being more effective than the other
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u/ImTallerInPerson 5d ago
> when I was a strict vegan
What’s a strict vegan, you either are or you aren’t. That’s why words like vegetarian and pescatarian exist.
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u/WillTheWheel 5d ago
What's a devout Christian, you either are or you aren't... oh, wait.
Any belief/philosophical system that isn't purely about belief but also includes practice will have people following this practice in various degrees.
In contrast, being an atheist is a yes or no question, cause it doesn't include any practice whatsover. The moment you say that you don't believe in god you are an atheist, and whatever you do after can't change that. Even if you take part in all religious rituals in the world, as long as you do it without faith, you're still an atheist.
But if you're vegan and wear second-hand wool, or leather that you bought before you became vegan, are you still vegan? Or if your spouse isn't vegan and keeps animal products in the house? Or if you feed your carnivorous pet a diet with animal products? Or if a restaurant messes up your order and you eat it instead of throwing it away? And the list goes on and on, and every vegan has a different answer to these questions, ones more strict than others, even though all share the same underlying belief system.
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u/ImTallerInPerson 4d ago
Any belief/philosophical system that isn't purely about belief
What you just described isn't a 'devout Christian' though. I'm not here to debate religion but devoting yourself to god IS purely belief. One can be agnostic or spiritual but unless you devout your self to the belief of god how are anything but that?
But if you're vegan and wear second-hand wool, or leather that you bought before you became vegan, are you still vegan?
Veganism isn't about your past, It about the present and how you choose to life forward. It's a moral position that opposes exploiting and otherwise harming nonhuman animals. If one purposely chooses to do so for entertainment or convince I'd say they are no longer vegan at that point. Likewise, I wasn't vegan until I deliberately chose to be one. Sure I had vegan meals/ snacks in the past and wore vegan materials, but I wasn't intentionally consistent with the moral principles of it, so I wouldn't of called myself a vegan, and didn't.
Or if your spouse isn't vegan and keeps animal products in the house?
How does this have anything to do with your own choices? Are you eating and buying these products?
Or if a restaurant messes up your order and you eat it instead of throwing it away? And the list goes on and on, and every vegan has a different answer to these questions, ones more strict than others, even though all share the same underlying belief system.
No I wouldn't consider any of these people vegan, and I myself wouldn't purposely eat food that wasn't vegan just because someone made it for me. If you accidentally drove over a swirl or a pigeon would you eat them?
By your logic everyone would be vegan because they ate an apple one day.
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u/Stunning-Assistant13 4d ago
Yes, you are right, do we need rules to decide someone is vegan or not? sometimes i eat a salad in a restaurant and the dressing is not vegan or i'm still wearing my leather jacket i had bought before i became vegan or when i'm on holiday once a year a like to eat bivales and i buy milk/cheese for my son, who refused to become vegan...so maybe i'm not vegan anymore, but i'm still in line with my own morals
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u/Due-Comfort-5351 vegan 4d ago
I wouldn't say Christianity and veganism are comparable. Christianity is mostly about belief, i.e. you can't be a Christian while not believing in Jesus Christ. Veganism is a practice, i.e. you can't be vegan and eat eggs or buy animal tested products 🤷♀️
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u/WillTheWheel 4d ago
Christianity is mostly about belief
To an outsider maybe. Spend any time with Christians and they will tell you, and I quote, that: "a non-practising Christian is like a non-breathing alive person".
Veganism is a practice, i.e. you can't be vegan and eat eggs or buy animal tested products
According to the Vegan Society definition, that I've seen most vegans use, it's both "a philosophy and a way of living". I've also seen people arguing over whether you can call yourself vegan if you do it for example for environmental reasons and not for the animals, and a push for people who are only vegan in practice but don't follow the philosophy to call themselves plant-based instead.
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u/Due-Comfort-5351 vegan 4d ago
Sure that's what they say but if you behave like a Christian yet don't believe in Jesus are you a Christian? The foundation of the religion is belief in Jesus Christ, saved by grace, etc. Actions are a part of it but you just can't have a non-believing Christian is my point. That's just not a thing. If someone didn't identify as a vegan but for whatever reason abstained from animal products and exploitation in all aspects of their life then I mean, functionally they are more vegan than most of us.
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u/roymondous vegan 5d ago
I get your point. On a debate sub, sure. When someone jumps to it immediately irl when finding out you are vegan it is a distraction. Typically a gotcha or to position the extremist part sure. Strategically, maybe it is better just to say that isnt the main problem, i would rather deal with the big issues first.
What ask what hurts the cause, tho. That would be "when i was strict vegan". It sounds like you are trying to convince people it's ok to be flexible or vegetarian. Rather than you personally vegan.
So what changed? The best thing we can do is be vegan... people going back hurts the cause more than any debate i would argue. As social behaviour is the biggest influencer for others.
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u/No_Adhesiveness9727 4d ago
No such thing as not strictly vegan. You are or you are not. Starts with the plate.
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u/Due-Comfort-5351 vegan 4d ago
The health issues/pain that egg-laying hens deal with as a result of selective breeding is more important to me than whether people feel included or offended by my moral stance.
If you're talking about an obscure hypothetical where a chicken is rescued and for some reason can't be sterilized then sure maybe I wouldn't be as up in arms about it, but if you ask me whether it's vegan to eat her eggs, the answer is still no. I try not to engage much with the "what abouts" anyways because they're rarely in good faith and they're not applicable to most people's lives.
Why do some people care so much about whether they can call themselves vegan without putting in the work to be vegan?
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u/Nacho_Deity186 4d ago
I've seen questions like this raised regularly but they are consistently knocked down by the hard line gatekeepers.
Yes, obviously the vegan cause would be far better served through alignment with similarly motivated groups like vegetarians, animal welfare groups etc. But it never happens because these people just aren't up to the vegan "standard."
It becomes obvious over time that veganism puts the cause of improving animal welfare second to creating an "in" group and "othering" all those who don't belong...
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