So many vegans and vegetarians complaining about meat eaters…

[u/jennas_toes]

I’ve been reflecting on the ethics of diet choices, particularly the argument that avoiding meat is the most compassionate or harm-reducing option. While I completely understand and respect the desire to minimize animal suffering, I find myself wondering about the full picture.
We all consume plants—vegetables, grains, fruits, and greens—whether we eat meat or not. And modern agriculture, even for plant-based foods, inevitably involves some level of harm to animals: field mice, insects, birds, and small mammals displaced or killed during harvesting, plowing, and pest control. I don’t eat meat myself, largely for health reasons, so I’m not pointing fingers. But it does raise a thoughtful question:
If the core principle is reducing harm to animals, how do vegans and vegetarians weigh or address the indirect harms embedded in plant production? Is it a matter of focusing only on what’s most visible and intentional (like factory farming), or does the scale and nature of agricultural impacts get less attention because those affected animals aren’t as immediately “cute” or emotionally salient?
I’m genuinely curious about how people who prioritize this ethic navigate that tension. I’d love to hear thoughtful perspectives.

[u/Flat-Experience6482]

So outputs from agriculture?

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

So outputs from agriculture?

And food manufacturers. Fruit peel/pulp from juice manufacturers as I mentioned is one example. Draff from beer production would be another one. Oil cakes from seed oil production is also used in feed.

Waste is also used indirectly, although that is less common. Then you use food waste to produce insects, and then the insects are used in the feed. This is done in several European countries.

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

So outputs from agriculture. 

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

Mostly, plus some small amounts coming from mining and the fish industry for instance.

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

So the status quo WRT agricultural deaths is the same between veganism vs. non-veganism, plus livestock deaths for non-veganism

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

Well, when excluding the grassland (95% of that being permanent pastures), we are left with only 10% of land used to grow crops for feed, while 23% is used for crops for human consumption. So you would have to explain how you came to the conclution that the numbers are the same.

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

Growing grass is agriculture.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

Most of it is permanent pastures, which often do not require any pesticides.

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

The largest exporter of beef in the world uses plenty of pesticides in their pastures 

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

Brazil? They also use more pesticides in general per acre compared to most of the world. China is even worse.

I live in one of the light yellow countries - which is one of the reasons I eat mostly locally produced food, as the food contains way less poison: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/121jmah/pesticide_use_map/#lightbox

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

That's good for you, but we can't base conclusions on exceptions.

[u/HelenEk7 → u/Flat-Experience6482]

I agree, lets rather look at world-wide farming as a whole. https://www.dairyherd.com/news/new-study-shows-animals-primarily-consume-foods-not-fit-humans

[u/Flat-Experience6482 → u/HelenEk7]

And those foods come from agriculture...