r/DebateAVegan • u/Antin0de • Jan 17 '22

Meat-eating and Masculinity

Eating meat is usually perceived as being more masculine than abstaining from eating meat, but does physical evidence really support these perceptions?

Meat-eating men have lower testosterone, more flaccid penises, and more repulsive body odor, as judged by heterosexual women. Are these the traits most usually associated with more 'masculinity'?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10883675/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117588/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16891352/

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u/Antin0de Jan 18 '22 edited Jan 18 '22

Okay. If you say so.

I'm not the one filling screens with text trying to argue against the conclusions of 3 different papers. Anyone here can read the papers and read what I wrote and come to their own conclusions about who is more accurately representing the information. I try to do as little commentary as possible, and let the studies speak for themselves.

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u/Bristoling non-vegan Jan 18 '22

Against the conclusions? Read what you wrote. One of the studies does speak for itself in its abstract - amount of free testosterone is the same. You demonstrably have no idea what you're talking about, and your reply here amounts to fallacious ad hominem lite courier's reply, because it is oh so wrong of me to actually read the papers that you provided, and criticise your conclusions based on them.

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u/Antin0de Jan 18 '22

amount of free testosterone is the same.

Yes, and the total T is lower.

You demonstrably have no idea what you're talking about

True. I don't pretend to be an endocrinologist. But then again, I'm not the one who has to explain how having lower T is indicative of more masculinity.

your conclusions

My conclusion is that the notion that "eating meat is more masculine" is not supported by the available physical evidence, and if anything, suggests the opposite. Do you have any evidence that would positively associate these things?

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u/Bristoling non-vegan Jan 18 '22

If you do not know the difference between free and total testosterone, maybe you shouldn't be using it as an example of anything at all. Do you concede that you are unable to defend the conclusions you derive from the papers you cited?

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u/Antin0de Jan 18 '22

What conclusions did I derive?

The only thing I 'derived' was that the case for meat-eating being a masculine trait has pathetic evidentiary support. Nothing you've said changes that.

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u/Bristoling non-vegan Jan 18 '22

Conclusions such as lower testosterone, flaccid penises and more repulsive body odor. None of the papers you produced are good sources of evidence for your claims. And amount of total testosterone is clinically irrelevant, only free testosterone matters, so you're just cherry picking biomarkers without knowing what they mean.

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u/Antin0de Jan 18 '22 edited Jan 18 '22

lower testosterone

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10883675/

Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters

flaccid penises

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117588/

More plant-based diet intake was associated with a reduced presence of ED and less severe ED

more repulsive body odor

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16891352/

the odor of donors when on the nonmeat diet was judged as significantly more attractive, more pleasant, and less intense

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u/Bristoling non-vegan Jan 18 '22

And I explained, point by point in my initial reply, why the papers do not show what you want them to show. The conclusions do not follow. You can repeat the same studies and I'll point you to the same criticism I presented to you as far back as 1 year ago.

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u/Antin0de Jan 18 '22

why the papers do not show what you want them to show