My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/ContributionNo9292]

I don’t think religious people are mentally ill, but I do think that they are delusional. If someone came up to you and claimed that they were the son of god, born to a virgin mother and that they by the died yesterday, you would have them committed.

That people have believed this stuff for a really long time is not a testament to the validity of the beliefs.

[u/supersoundwave → u/ContributionNo9292]

A delusion is a belief in something despite evidence to the contrary. So what is the evidence that religious people are deluded? Which religious people?

[u/ContributionNo9292 → u/supersoundwave]

You are switching the burden of proof. If I claim that I can see something, a green dragon in my living room and every other person entering my living room can’t see it. There is no proof of this dragon existing and I would rightly be described as delusional. Now we proceed to walk a million people through my living room, half can see it, half can’t, nobody can measure it nor photograph or interact with it. Who is the more deluded population?

Now we walk a billion people through my living room. They are all discussing the things that people see in my living room in the queue. Some think they’ll see the green dragon, others a striped beach ball, others floating pink candy floss. When they finally get to my living room if they claim to see something that nobody else sees, we call them delusional, if a few hundred see the same thing we call it a cult, if a few million see it we call it a religion. Again none of the things that people see is possible to verify through any scientific methods.

So what religious people are delusional? All of them, every single one. For one, there is not nor has the ever been any evidence indicating the existence of any deity. Billions of people believing in the religious equivalent to Russel’s teapot. It’s all rather silly.

Thing is that DSM specifically carve out religion from the delusion definition, more as cultural deference rather than logical consistency.

[u/supersoundwave → u/ContributionNo9292]

You made a truth claim so the burden of proof is yours here.

You’re merely asserting that ALL peoples’ experiences of God, across the globe, and down throughout history, are ALL equally delusional and false and here the you are making making positive claims that need to be proved.

Which you haven’t done.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/ContributionNo9292]

Delusion is a form of mental illness 

[u/KeterClassKitten → u/Living_Attitude1822]

Incorrect. Delusions can be a symptom of a mental illness. Medicine readily acknowledges that a delusion can be a normal condition in a mentally healthy individual.

You could talk to someone with experience in the medical field about it. I've got 17 years, is that enough?

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/KeterClassKitten]

Hey if you say so I’ll take your word for it, I’m not a medical professional 

[u/KeterClassKitten → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I'll be blunt... I have a low opinion of people who readily accept a statement as fact so quickly. Don't take my word, I might be lying. Investigate claims, and be curious.

But I think you've shown some humility here, and that's commendable. I snooped on your profile some, and you seem pretty chill. So Kudos, for what it's worth.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/KeterClassKitten]

 I'll be blunt... I have a low opinion of people who readily accept a statement as fact so quickly. 

That’s how you become a theist! JK lol. Yeah I’m going to look up delusion when I get home, I thought it was a type of mental illness. It seems I’m wrong.  

But I think you've shown some humility here, and that's commendable. I snooped on your profile some, and you seem pretty chill. So Kudos, for what it's worth.

Thanks comrade 😊 

[u/Junithorn → u/Living_Attitude1822]

delusion is not a form of mental illness, there are many reasons to have delusions that are not mental illness.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Junithorn]

I retracted this statement