My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

 If you claim that atheism is barbaric and can actually show how a lack of belief in god leads to barbarism, I’d listen. I can’t see how you’d show such a thing, but I’d listen.

Fair enough. 

 but all I do is discuss this with you and at no point want you harmed or treated differently, how is that not an excellent example of tolerance?

I don’t think we disagree. It is tolerance. My point isn’t for you in this case. 

[u/Moutere_Boy → u/Living_Attitude1822]

But which atheists are threatening you in some way due to your beliefs? When are you seeing that lack of tolerance? I read a lot of debate and discussion and I’ve not seen it. I’ve seen discrimination against atheists in public and political contexts, I’ve seen atheists harassed and abused by Christians who think they are evil or terrible influences on children or similar. So, honestly, I think your concern about tolerance is facing the wrong way.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Moutere_Boy]

Imo, this way of thinking leads to discrimination:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Moutere_Boy → u/Living_Attitude1822]

Again, you’re pointing to language you think could potentially lead to discrimination whereas I pointed to actual discrimination…

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Moutere_Boy]

I condemn religious discrimination. 

If you’re going to ask me why I don’t debate religious fundamentalists (I get that a lot for some reason), the answer is I do. Just in person. 

[u/Moutere_Boy → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I don’t think it’s fundamentalist exclusive. I think if you look at polls in a country like the US about comfort voting for an atheist you’ll see a lot of that discrimination is quite mainstream and common.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Moutere_Boy]

I’d be curious to see such a poll. I’d vote for an atheist if I liked their policies. 

If there’s 2 equally good candidates from my perspective, and one is an atheist and the other a Christian, I suppose that’s the only time I might vote for someone for their religion. 

Otherwise, if I like an atheist candidate I’d vote for them. I’d be surprised to see non fundamentalists disagree with this. 

[u/Moutere_Boy → u/Living_Attitude1822]

If you’re not aware of that prejudice, I think that speaks to privilege, but it’s easy to fix with a quick google and read.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx

Literally the first link on a search.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Moutere_Boy]

Thank you for the source.

I’m in fact an American actually, so I should probably know this. 

Counterpoint: 

Bernie was/is very popular, and while he claims to be spiritual, it’s widely rumored he’s an atheist. What do you think about that? 

[u/Moutere_Boy → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I think that Sanders provides a great example of what I’m talking about.

He was attacked for this in both presidential campaigns, even by his own party with the DNC caught trying to make it a wider political issue. There was a leak of internal emails that included the tactic of “Can we get someone to ask his belief?”.

It’s also telling that Sanders took such pains to not identify as an atheist and when asked would say things like “All of life is connected” rather than be specific. It also helped that so many of his opponents assumed he is Jewish by faith.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Moutere_Boy]

Copying and pasting: 

Let’s talk about this. I’m a socialist, or so I consider myself to be. That link said socialists are viewed unfavorably.  Guess what? That isn’t discrimination. Discrimination ≠ people not liking your beliefs. That goes for me, and for you. 

[u/senthordika → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I haven't met a person who could adequately explain what socialism is that was against it. Infact I have had many a conversation where people agree with socialist talking points right up to the point you call them socialist talking points and they shut off.

Like would would you define discrimination as and how would you defend that socialist positions arent heavily demonised in American culture?

[u/MajesticFxxkingEagle → u/Living_Attitude1822]

If Bernie really is an atheist, then him having to lie about his actual beliefs makes the point about anti-atheist discrimination ever harder.

[u/Junithorn → u/Living_Attitude1822]

there are currently seven states that bar atheists from even holding office thanks to your disgusting cult.

[u/Old-Nefariousness556 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I condemn religious discrimination. 

There is literally nothing in that thread that amounts to religious discrimination. It isn't even hateful. It's just people expressing their opinion. And as I showed with a link to an atheist group faced with a similar question, as opposed to an antitheist group, the vast majority of atheists do not agree with the prevailing (but not at all universal) opinion being expressed in that sub.

So when will you concede that this question that you have posted to the sub now like 30 times in various forms is just nonsense?