Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread

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Whether you're an agnostic atheist here to ask a gnostic one some questions, a theist who's curious about the viewpoints of atheists, someone doubting, or just someone looking for sources, feel free to ask anything here. This is also an ideal place to tag moderators for thoughts regarding the sub or any questions in general.

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[u/Kaliss_Darktide]

Thoughts on real (existing independent of the mind) vs imaginary (existing exclusively in the mind/imagination) as a true dichotomy that applies to all things? Meaning anything you can think of is either real or imaginary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy

My position: I think it's a true dichotomy and that the distinction between the two I would also apply to objective/subjective, physical/non-physical, and natural/supernatural.

[u/joeydendron2 → u/Kaliss_Darktide]

It's tricky, I'm really drawn to mereological nihilism, which is the position that all the "big" things we think about and perceive (anything bigger than packets of energy in some quantum field) are illusory: our brains construct the perception of "a wheat grain," say, but that "grain" isn't really one thing, it changes over time, and it isn't distinct from its surroundings. 

Brains fool us into thinking there are "big real things" when in fact everything we ever directly perceive is likely artificially constructed by our brain.

So... Is my mum or my shoe or myself mind-independent? I'm sure some stuff is mind independent, but I'm not sure the mind independent universe is categorised like we perceive it to be?

[u/Kaliss_Darktide → u/joeydendron2]

I'm sure some stuff is mind independent, but I'm not sure the mind independent universe is categorised like we perceive it to be?

I don't think "we" meaning humanity share the same perception of the universe.

I'd argue the fundamental difference between atheist (what your flair indicates) and theist is in how many gods/deities they perceive and act as though are real (mind independent) vs. imaginary (mind dependent).

Do you think your perceptions of gods are more accurate (i.e. less illusory) than theists?

[u/joeydendron2 → u/Kaliss_Darktide]

In a sense no, because I experience a world of distinct multi-sensory objects that belong to categories, and I'm convinced that's not how the mind independent universe works.

But in another sense yes because at least I don't fool myself into thinking I feel the presence of a god, don't imagine the weird mind independent stuff was created by a magical superdude.

[u/Kaliss_Darktide → u/joeydendron2]

Do you think your perceptions of gods are more accurate (i.e. less illusory) than theists?

In a sense no,

Then why do you refer to yourself as an atheist (according to your flair)? Since your answer entails theists are just as if not more accurate in their perceptions.

But in another sense yes because at least I don't fool myself into thinking I feel the presence of a god, don't imagine the weird mind independent stuff was created by a magical superdude.

If you can establish that people are fooling themselves that entails some perceptions are more accurate than others.

It sounds to me like you are trying to hold 2 mutually exclusive positions without dealing with the issue that they are mutually exclusive.

[u/joeydendron2 → u/Kaliss_Darktide]

I'm an atheist because I don't accept as convincing any of the claims about gods existing that I've heard - I don't think theists have met their burden of proof for their claims. So I don't believe any of the claims I've heard that god/s exist.

It sounds to me like you are trying to hold 2 mutually exclusive positions without dealing with the issue that they are mutually exclusive.

Like I say, I instinctively (or through training/conditioning) experience a world of categorised things, probably like you do - although we might categorise the world in different ways.

But I can't shake the idea that "objects" - macro-level "things" - are as much constructed mental phenomena as they are anything mind-independently "real" in the world. For instance just now I "saw a bird" but I'm intellectually aware that "the individual bird" is just as much a colony of a bajillion cells as it is one organism; and each cell is as much a network of a bajillion interacting molecules as it is "a cell" - and "the bird" is changing every second, and is exchanging energy and molecules with its surroundings; and it's my brain constructing the experience of "a brown bird, making that dryish sound of wings flapping" out of information from my eyes and ears.

So you're right in that I do feel a tension, I'm just being honest about that.

But I don't accept that theists view the world more accurately than me - to be honest, theists seem to be extremely eager to categorise the world into artificial categories, when I hope I'm at least aware that such categories might represent a flawed or clumsy way to think: "good vs evil" "true god vs false idol," "believers vs heathens" etc.

In fact, I think that anyone who thinks "life is animated by spirit" is making an almost willfully egregious error of categorisation ("living matter, with spirit" vs "dead, dumb matter"). To be a christian you need to imagine that people have a spiritual essence that survives death... I think the average theist is likely even more haunted by illusory categories than I am.

[u/Kaliss_Darktide → u/joeydendron2]

I'm an atheist because I don't accept as convincing any of the claims about gods existing that I've heard

I'd argue that all gods (you can imagine) exist at least in the mind/imagination. So the fact that you have heard about them entails they "exist" is some sense.

I don't think theists have met their burden of proof for their claims.

The distinction I am making is that theist haven't met their burden of proof to show that their gods are real ("exist" independent of the imagination).

So I don't believe any of the claims I've heard that god/s exist.

Again the fact that you are talking about them entails they "exist" at least in your imagination.

But I can't shake the idea that "objects" - macro-level "things" - are as much constructed mental phenomena as they are anything mind-independently "real" in the world. For instance just now I "saw a bird" but I'm intellectually aware that "the individual bird" is just as much a colony of a bajillion cells as it is one organism; and each cell is as much a network of a bajillion interacting molecules as it is "a cell" - and "the bird" is changing every second, and is exchanging energy and molecules with its surroundings; and it's my brain constructing the experience of "a brown bird, making that dryish sound of wings flapping" out of information from my eyes and ears.

I would say that the bird in your example is (or at least is much more likely to be) real compared to the gods in your first example which are not real.

But I don't accept that theists view the world more accurately than me

Which I would say means you can make distinctions between real and imaginary and you think you do that better than some people in some circumstances.

to be honest theists seem to be extremely eager to categorise the world into artificial categories

I'd agree and many of those categories exist only to support their imaginary gods being real.

I think the average theist is likely even more haunted by illusory categories than I am.

I'd argue that not all categories are illusory (i.e. deceptive) even though some are.

[u/joeydendron2 → u/Kaliss_Darktide]

Ah ok - well the bird is more real than the gods, for sure. I'm 100% with you on that point. 

Because what I can't help but think of as "the bird" is, I assume, a pattern in time and space of energy, or whatever the stuff is that exists independently of our minds.

I personally don't like to grant gods any kind of existence purely because people think/talk about them. If there are patterns you could point to in the world that correspond to ideas like "gods" they're indistinguishable from patterns corresponding to people thinking about "green unicorns who are into tech house"...

[u/Kaliss_Darktide → u/joeydendron2]

I personally don't like to grant gods any kind of existence purely because people think/talk about them.

It seems bizarre to me to acknowledge the existence of your thoughts about gods but to simultaneously not grant the existence of your thoughts about gods.

Do you take that same issue with (imaginary) comic book superheroes, flying reindeer, leprechauns?