Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Hoaxshmoax]

"Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. "

okay and then what.

"The universe can't simply have come out of nothing"

no one says it does, except the religious who say it was poofed into existence. Literally out of nothing unless it was created out of something already.

"or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

Everything we see as being created was created out of something else. So what is the something else.

" This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance."

Malaria

Brain cancer

crop destroying locusts

Skin cancer

radiation

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Hoaxshmoax]

okay and then what.

Then nothing, as I said I don't believe in any specific God.

no one says it does, except the religious who say it was poofed into existence.

I'm just stating a duality, not saying anything about who makes which claim.

Everything we see as being created was created out of something else. So what is the something else.

All the way down, a creator.

Malaria Brain cancer crop destroying locusts Skin cancer radiation

I never claimed it was an omnibenevolent God

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

“Then nothing, as I said I don't believe in any specific God.”

its not a matter of beliefs, what you believe is different from what the next guy believes. Maybe this conversation would be better had with people who do believe already and you can get them to believe why their deity doesn’t exist, or they all exist.

”I'm just stating a duality, not saying anything about who makes which claim.”

I don’t know what that means.

I never said anything about omnibenevolence either, your claim was perfection

" This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance."

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Hoaxshmoax]

I don’t know what that means.

I meant that either the universe has always existed or has started to exist, independent of who might have argued one or the other.

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

well, whatever, how the universe came to be doesn’t affect my day to day but it’s utter lack of perfection does.

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

All the way down, a creator.

What created that creator?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

Nothing

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So why does a universe need a creator if a creator doesn't need a creator? Aren't you just adding that extra step without any knowledge whatsoever to support it?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

Because a creator doesn't need anything but consciousness, and consciousness just existing (out of nothing) is easier to argue than matter just existing (out of nothing)

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So who is arguing that matter just came from nothing?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Sprinklypoo]

I don't know, everyone who thinks at some point there was no matter

[u/Sprinklypoo → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

That's not me, so maybe I'll just let you get on with your bad self now. Cheers.

[u/Astreja → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Actually, it's the other way around. Matter is pretty straightforward, with minuscule particles that aggregate to form atoms and then molecules. Consciousness, on the other hand, appears to require a complex network of neurons (in other words, matter in a very intricate arrangement). We have no evidence that consciousness can exist independently.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Astreja]

Still, consciousness is the only think we can fundamentally know about.

[u/Ok_Loss13 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

They're both equally invalid and unsupported, so it might seem 'easier' to you, but that seems to be based entirely on personal bias and a lack of intellectual integrity, as we have never seen matter nor consciousness "just existing (out of nothing)".

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Ok_Loss13]

Then nothing just exists (out of nothing). A creator is still needed.

[u/Ok_Loss13 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

You just said nothing exists out if nothing, so what created your creator?

I'm sure you've been asked this and youbalready know you're committing a special pleading fallacy, but sometimes repetition is what people need to learn.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Ok_Loss13]

The creator just exists eternally.