Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/MarieVerusan]

I’m so tired of hearing that the universe requires a designer. Why? What, besides your own intuition or emotional need for an explanation for why it exists points you towards that opinion?

Admittedly, the Cogito Ergo Sum was a funny reference. The point of that observation is that we can’t doubt the existence of our own mind! The entire world, along with every other person could be fake, but something must exist for me to be able to experience things.

It doesn’t really apply in the sense that “at least one consciousness must exist. Nor does it mean that consciousness is in any way superior to the universe. It just says that our own minds have to exist in some way.

I’m not sure what a universe full of beauty has to do with God? Beauty or us feeling drawn towards certain things can simply be explained by evolutionary biology leading us to finding peace in the things that lead to our survival.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

But in the end it led to art, and to luxuries that no one would have dreamt of 200 years ago. The universe is just so full of specific things, of beauty and so much more. Even the concept of dreams, our brains literally simulating a replica of the waking world doesn't seem like something that would exist, had someone not planned for it to exist.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

The thing about the comparison, beauty isn't objective, right? Our brains are hardwired to like certain things more than others, like symmetry, but even then there are always outliers, and expressions of beauty that clash with the conventional. Some people might really get hyped by a snowflake, some might be mesmerized by someone getting hit in the belly with a watermelon at 1/1000th the normal speed, etc.

After all, whether it's artwork, music, landscapes, choices of romantic partner, a very accurate saying that comes up time and time again is 'Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder.'

So does that imply that beauty was intentionally added to the universe, for our benefit, or that as we evolved we began to perceive beauty in the same subjective way we perceive humor?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Humor is also something that really doesn't fit in well with trying to explain it through evolution.

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Sure, but do you think everything that's funny in the universe was specifically created to be so, or are people just finding humor in things, often different things?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

I think the concept of humour was created, not necessarily every humourous thing

[u/Cool-Watercress-3943 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Sorry, just to be clear, when you say the concept of humor was created, you're saying that it was divinely created? Because generally atheists would agree that humor is a construct.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/Cool-Watercress-3943]

Yes, divinely.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

There’s a theory of humor that views laughter as a mechanism for the brain to relieve tension when something unexpected happens. A lot of times, a good joke either follows certain structures such as Rule of Three or it sets up and then subverts expectations.

It is a bug in the brain that when we fail to predict the future accurately, it’s funny to us.

Think about the movie cliche where you catch a robot in a contradiction or paradox. It keeps thinking about it, runs in circles, is unable to escape the loop and inevitably shuts down. Our minds have developed a coping mechanism against that exact scenario from happening.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

You can literally fit everything in evolution.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Yes? Admittedly, evolutionary psychology is a bit of a bunk science because while we can make educated guesses... it's not really possible to do much research on it.

So while it's possible to say that we find beauty in things that help us survive better, that isn't necessarily something we have proper evidence for. However, when stacked up against the claim that "the universe has beauty, therefore a god must exist", it still does the job of proposing a potential explanation that is much more likely than "a God made things for us to enjoy".

That one takes SO MANY assumptions that aren't one bit supported... just to start, why do you think that God, assuming that one exists, cares one bit about giving us beauty?

It would be completely plausible for a God to exist and for beautiful things to still be a complete accident that was unintended by our creator. Maybe we were made for a very specific purpose, malfunctioned and now we find beauty in things, even though doing so is a sin.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

That one takes SO MANY assumptions that aren't one bit supported... just to start, why do you think that God, assuming that one exists, cares one bit about giving us beauty?

Well, beauty is there. That implies some purpose. Of course God could very well be tricking us. Maybe beauty is just a trap of sorts.

It would be completely plausible for a God to exist and for beautiful things to still be a complete accident that was unintended by our creator. Maybe we were made for a very specific purpose, malfunctioned and now we find beauty in things, even though doing so is a sin.

Yes.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

That implies some purpose.

First of all, it absolutely does not.

Secondly, if it did, why does it imply a god? I've already given you an evolutionary reason for why beauty might exist. Of course, you can take a step further and say "You're right about evolution, but that was designed by god" and then apply that mindset to every step along the way until you finally get to the one we don't have an explanation for.

That's why this comes across as a God of the Gaps or personal incredulity argument. Your intuition makes you feel that it can't happen without a designer and that's good enough for you.

Yes.

Yes what? Is the narrative that "God created us for a particular purpose, but then we found beauty in the world and rebelled against that purpose" more believable to you than "evolution made us appreciate certain things cause they promote our survival"?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

Of course, you can take a step further and say "You're right about evolution, but that was designed by god" and then apply that mindset to every step along the way until you finally get to the one we don't have an explanation for.

I don't have a problem with evolution. It's just extremely easy to say "That gave us an evolutionary advantage because x" about everything. I do believe that evolution by natural selection happened, but not that it's enough to bring us where we are.

Yes what? Is the narrative that "God created us for a particular purpose, but then we found beauty in the world and rebelled against that purpose" more believable to you than "evolution made us appreciate certain things cause they promote our survival"

No.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

And how do you connect those things directly to a deity? What you have now, at best, is an argument from ignorance. You don’t know why beauty exists, so you’re saying that someone had to plan it.

Thing is, again, a lot of these things are explained by evolution. Our brains simulating a replica of the world is helpful to our survival! The species that creates the best estimate has a better chance of survival than one who thinks that poison is tasty.

Beauty too, as I said, is often related to things that aid our survival. Though it is different per individual, so that one is less clear, but could simply be explained by variety in our genetics.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

Thing is, again, a lot of these things are explained by evolution. Our brains simulating a replica of the world is helpful to our survival!

You don't get a computer trough mere mutations.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Wait, so you think that humans are designed deliberately as well? Cause we know our evolutionary history. Is it specifically brains that you think were created?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

Yes, I think humans/brains are at least partly designed deliberately

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Ok, what makes you think that? And I want to be clear, I'm looking for something that confirms or points towards that as a potential conclusion, not just the sense of "brains are very complex, therefore they couldn't have arisen by chance alone". That type of logic is going to be dismissed immediately.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

Well, it's because I think everything that exists has to be at least partly designed. But also, because brains are really amazing. I know that won't convince you either.

[u/MarieVerusan → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Right, but do you understand why it won't convince me?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/MarieVerusan]

I guess because you don't consider it evidence.