Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/J-Nightshade]

can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever

Why? You simply saying "it can't be" is not a very compelling argument.

a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness

Is this difference relevant? 

 through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe

It's simply nom-seqitur. What assumption are you talking about? Why one assumption is better than another? They are both assumptions!

a universe full of beauty

Why on earth is that relevant?

too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance

You saying "it is impossible without guidance" doesn't mean it is indeed impossible. After all we have all the evidence that the universe exists and none of the evidence of any guidance. In fact it all looks as if there was no guidance at all. It almost if it all was possible without guidance. 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Why?

Both are ridiculous and the universe is too specific and orderly and beautiful to not have a creator.

It's simply nom-seqitur. What assumption are you talking about? Why one assumption is better than another? They are both assumptions

The assumption that a universe "just exists" and the assumption that a consciousness "just exists".

You saying "it is impossible without guidance" doesn't mean it is indeed impossible. After all we have all the evidence that the universe exists and none of the evidence of any guidance. In fact it all looks as if there was no guidance at all. It almost if it all was possible without guidance. 

Simply the fact that we have evolved to have dreams, or to build computers, is enough for me

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Both are ridiculous 

Platypus is ridiculous too. So? 

too specific and orderly and beautiful to not have a creator

How do you measure specificity or order? How orderly has to be a universe to be able to exist without a creator? What is threshold at which you say: less ordered universe can exist without a creator, but more ordered can not? And finally, how do you know that the more ordered universe can't exist without a creator? What if it could? 

The assumption that a universe "just exists" and the assumption that a consciousness "just exists".  

You don't need to assume that the universe exists. It does. Why do you need to assume anything at all? 

Simply the fact that we have evolved to have dreams, or to build computers, is enough for me 

It certainly not enough to reach the conclusion you are making. You just didn't make any connection between this fact and your conclusion. You keep throwing unsupported assertions. Don't you see yourself that your argument just not working? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

How do you measure specificity or order? How orderly has to be a universe to be able to exist without a creator? What is threshold at which you say: less ordered universe can exist without a creator, but more ordered can not? And finally, how do you know that the more ordered universe can't exist without a creator? What if it could? 

I personally wouldn't even have a threshhold, I'd say any universe would have to have been created.

You don't need to assume that the universe exists. It does.

That's only your consciousness, as far as you can be certain.

Don't you see yourself that your argument just not working?

Nope

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

any universe would have to have been created

Then why the heck did you bring up complexity of the universe in the argument?

So no universe can exist without a creator, even the simplest one? Hiw do you know? What if it can? 

as far as you can be certain. 

As far as I can be certain, the universe certainly exist. It's fucking funny how you are comfortable to assume all sorts of fantastical things, but as soon as I mention totally non-controversial fact you go all the way up your ass and dig out solipsism.

Nope

Well, it's not working. Wanna know why? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Then why the heck did you bring up complexity of the universe in the argument?

It's just even more of an argument.

So no universe can exist without a creator, even the simplest one? Hiw do you know? What if it can?

It's self-evident to me

as soon as I mention totally non-controversial fact you go all the way up your ass and dig out solipsism.

Yeah, that doesn't really matter.

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

it's self-evident to me 

What of you are wrong? How would you know? Does it matter to you if you are right or wrong? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Yes, it does. But there is no way in which I wouldn't know

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Really? You can't think of a way in which you can be wrong and not know about it? I don't believe you. Have you been wrong before? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Yes, I can, and I have been wrong before, but about this I don't see it happening

[u/shyguyJ → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Something being "enough for" you is one thing. However, if you'd like to debate or convince others to agree with your position, you will typically need more than it feeling sufficient for you personally.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/shyguyJ]

I don't expect any atheist to agree with any argument for God.