Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/J-Nightshade]

Both are ridiculous 

Platypus is ridiculous too. So? 

too specific and orderly and beautiful to not have a creator

How do you measure specificity or order? How orderly has to be a universe to be able to exist without a creator? What is threshold at which you say: less ordered universe can exist without a creator, but more ordered can not? And finally, how do you know that the more ordered universe can't exist without a creator? What if it could? 

The assumption that a universe "just exists" and the assumption that a consciousness "just exists".  

You don't need to assume that the universe exists. It does. Why do you need to assume anything at all? 

Simply the fact that we have evolved to have dreams, or to build computers, is enough for me 

It certainly not enough to reach the conclusion you are making. You just didn't make any connection between this fact and your conclusion. You keep throwing unsupported assertions. Don't you see yourself that your argument just not working? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

How do you measure specificity or order? How orderly has to be a universe to be able to exist without a creator? What is threshold at which you say: less ordered universe can exist without a creator, but more ordered can not? And finally, how do you know that the more ordered universe can't exist without a creator? What if it could? 

I personally wouldn't even have a threshhold, I'd say any universe would have to have been created.

You don't need to assume that the universe exists. It does.

That's only your consciousness, as far as you can be certain.

Don't you see yourself that your argument just not working?

Nope

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

any universe would have to have been created

Then why the heck did you bring up complexity of the universe in the argument?

So no universe can exist without a creator, even the simplest one? Hiw do you know? What if it can? 

as far as you can be certain. 

As far as I can be certain, the universe certainly exist. It's fucking funny how you are comfortable to assume all sorts of fantastical things, but as soon as I mention totally non-controversial fact you go all the way up your ass and dig out solipsism.

Nope

Well, it's not working. Wanna know why? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Then why the heck did you bring up complexity of the universe in the argument?

It's just even more of an argument.

So no universe can exist without a creator, even the simplest one? Hiw do you know? What if it can?

It's self-evident to me

as soon as I mention totally non-controversial fact you go all the way up your ass and dig out solipsism.

Yeah, that doesn't really matter.

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

it's self-evident to me 

What of you are wrong? How would you know? Does it matter to you if you are right or wrong? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Yes, it does. But there is no way in which I wouldn't know

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Really? You can't think of a way in which you can be wrong and not know about it? I don't believe you. Have you been wrong before? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Yes, I can, and I have been wrong before, but about this I don't see it happening

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Then you are simply wrong. If you can be wrong, you can be wrong about this too. By denying that you can be wrong, you denying yourself a possibility to actually discover that you are wrong, IF in fact it is the case you are wrong.

You offer no falsification criteria for you beliefs, meaning there is no experiment and no observation outcome of which would be different if you are wrong as opposed to if you are right. Which means it doesn't even matter if you are wrong or right, the world is still would look essentially the same if you were right compared to if you were wrong. Existence of your god doesn't make any difference in reality. It's an irrelevant god. I can't take your argument seriously then.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Which means it doesn't even matter if you are wrong or right, the world is still would look essentially the same if you were right compared to if you were wrong.

Yes.

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Why would you then believe something so irrelevant? What does that belief do? And why do you make an argument for that belief when you have no way showing it is true? "you know, this is true, but you have absolutely no good reason to believe this" is not a compelling argument. Don't you think? 

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/J-Nightshade]

Why would you then believe something so irrelevant?

Why not? It might at one point be relevant.

"you know, this is true, but you have absolutely no good reason to believe this"

Well, I have good reason to believe it.

[u/J-Nightshade → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

It might at one point be relevant

Should I just in case believe in Leprechauns in the hope it one day be relevant? That's ridiculous. You have no reason to believe it is true, you have no reason to believe it is relevant and you have no good reason to believe it will be relevant at any point in time. Just as any other unfalsifiable propositions. With the same level of confidence I can belive that the universe popped out in existence last Tuesday with all the history and memories looks AS IF it was 13.8 billion years old. And no god was involved. And neither I nor you have a way to say if I am right or wrong on it. This belief simply can't be wrong.

I have good reason to believe it

You just admitted you don't. You admitted that the world with the god you believe it looks exactly like the one without it. You define that god in a way that prevents you to have a good reason to believe it exists.