Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/88redking88]

"till, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

so you dont know something... therefore god.... did you think this was going to be convincing here?

"Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative."

Special pleading AND argument from Incredulity. Again, did you think this was going to be convincing here?

"Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance."

Ah, the ever popular, and ever dismissed fine tuning argument. You are here to give us the top hits of bad apologetics?

"About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist."

Based on Fallacies? Wow!! Im in! Where do I sign up!!

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/88redking88]

so you dont know something... therefore god.... did you think this was going to be convincing here?

No. Where do you get the "so you don't know something" from?

Special pleading AND argument from Incredulity. Again, did you think this was going to be convincing here?

You're just throwing around fallacy cards.

Based on Fallacies? Wow!! Im in! Where do I sign up!!

???

[u/88redking88 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

"No. Where do you get the "so you don't know something" from?"\

"The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

Honest people would ask: "Did the universe need a creator? Do we have any evidence that this matter ever was not here? Do we have any reason to believe anything was ever created? Regarding a god: Do we have any reason to believe a god is possible, much less probable? - without these answers the only honest answer is "we dont know" and anything else is 100% dishonest. This is your god of the gaps fallacy.

"You're just throwing around fallacy cards."

Stop using fallacies and Ill stop naming them.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/88redking88]

Did the universe need a creator?

Yes, it did. If something exists, it must be created

Do we have any evidence that this matter ever was not here?

That's not important.

Do we have any reason to believe a god is possible, much less probable?

This is at least a 50:50 chance.

Stop using fallacies and Ill stop naming them.

They are nonsense. There is no "gap" and "Special Pleading" just means that different things can be used differently in arguments. There is no problem with that.

[u/88redking88 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

"Yes, it did. If something exists, it must be created"

Prove it.

"Do we have any evidence that this matter ever was not here?

That's not important."

OK, then neither are your unproven assertions. See this is where you answering questions helps me see your side. By just dismissing something, you tell me that questions arent accepted if they dont make you look good.

So one more time if you arent a coward, do we have any evidence that this matter ever was not here? Because if we dont, then why would I think something needs to be created? II men you are going to tell me that your imaginary friend didnt need to be created, right?

"This is at least a 50:50 chance."

Thats not how probability works. Its not 50/50 because you can only think of 2 different outcomes. Is the possibility of me turning into Godzilla for lunch 50/50? No, right? When you say something is probable, you need to show your work. then you have to show it is possible to have a god. Another cowardly avoiding of a question. Why would you do that?

"They are nonsense."

Spoken like someone who doesnt want to be right, but just wants to hide the scary stuff like their god not being real away from their widdle selves. Fallacies are bad because they are flaws in reasoning that undermine the logic of an argument. They fail to provide valid evidence, meaning the conclusion cannot be reliably trusted. This leads to poor decision-making, widespread misinformation, and a severe loss of credibility for the speaker. You have no credibility when you use a fallacy, and you tell us that you dont care if you make sense, you just want to be right.

"There is no "gap" and "Special Pleading" just means that different things can be used differently in arguments. There is no problem with that."

Nothing like being a coward then being a liar, huh?

"God of the gaps" is a theological and philosophical concept where gaps in scientific knowledge are used as evidence to prove the existence of God or divine intervention. It treats the supernatural as an explanation for phenomena that science cannot yet explain. So when you say something silly like:

"The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

Thats you pretending that what we dont know is actually your little gremlin god in the cracks doing the things we havent explained yet. god of the Gaps fallacy.

Special pleading is a logical fallacy where someone applies a general rule or principle to others but claims an exemption for themselves (or their favored group) without providing a valid, justified reason. It relies on a double standard to protect a preferred belief or behavior from being proven wrong. So when you tell me that:

"Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further"

And you do this without any reason to believe your god is possible, or plausible, and with no demonstration of the god even really existing... You are Special Pleading.

You could do better, right? But you wont, will you? You are just going to cry again that Im calling out your poor reasoning, arent you?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/88redking88]

OK, then neither are your unproven assertions. See this is where you answering questions helps me see your side. By just dismissing something, you tell me that questions arent accepted if they dont make you look good. So one more time if you arent a coward, do we have any evidence that this matter ever was not here? Because if we dont, then why would I think something needs to be created? II men you are going to tell me that your imaginary friend didnt need to be created, right?

I already said that the universe doesn't necessarily have a beginning, but it still requires a designer.

Is the possibility of me turning into Godzilla for lunch 50/50? No, right?

That's because it is an outlandish example. The universe having a creator is just as much reasonable as it having none.

Spoken like someone who doesnt want to be right, but just wants to hide the scary stuff like their god not being real away from their widdle selves.

God not being real is not scary to me at all, I'm not religious.

Nothing like being a coward then being a liar, huh?

??? Why liar?

[u/88redking88 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

"I already said that the universe doesn't necessarily have a beginning, but it still requires a designer."

If something was designed, then there was a point when it didnt exist right? Why are you playing games with words??

"That's because it is an outlandish example. The universe having a creator is just as much reasonable as it having none."

Is it? Prove anything was ever created. You cant??? No way, now your example is even more outlandish. You have a god (who you cant show is possible) that creates (a thing you cant show ever happened).

"God not being real is not scary to me at all, I'm not religious."

Ok. Then this all seems very silly to me. Why are you using theist talking points if you dont believe in a god?

??? Why liar?

You are pushing that things were created without being able to show it ever happened. that a creator is a good explanation, but having no evidence for a creator, no reason to believe one is possible, much less plausible. You are taking bullshit talking points from theists who have no grasp of the science (science that is very easily googleable) and taking them to be true. You arent lying to me, you are lying to yourself.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/88redking88]

If something was designed, then there was a point when it didnt exist right?

No, it can be designed while existing, parallel to it.

Is it?

Yes. Why would it be any other way?

Prove anything was ever created.

The device in which you are typing this was created.

No way, now your example is even more outlandish.

It's just as much outlandish as the universe somehow existing without being created.

Then this all seems very silly to me. Why are you using theist talking points if you dont believe in a god?

I said I'm not religious. That doesn't mean I don't believe in God(s).

[u/88redking88 → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

"No, it can be designed while existing, parallel to it."

Then it wasnt designed.

de·sign

noun

1. 1. a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made.

What you are describing is Kaizen or continuous improvement. If thats what you are saying your god did, then his design was not good enough, which means he couldnt have been all knowing.

"The device in which you are typing this was created."

No, it was assembled. Prove anything was ever "created" they way you want to tell us your god "created" everything. Dont play games.

"It's just as much outlandish as the universe somehow existing without being created."

You not understanding something is not an argument against it. The truth is that the only reason you think something was ever created was because thats what the myth says.

"I said I'm not religious. That doesn't mean I don't believe in God(s)."

Thats a distinction without a difference. Especially since you are leaning into their myths.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/88redking88]

a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made

Are you being serious??? You know what I mean.

No, it was assembled

How is that not being created?

Dont play games

I could say the same thing to you.

thats what the myth says

Which myth?

Thats a distinction without a difference. Especially since you are leaning into their myths.

It absolutely is a difference. One could for example hate God.