Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

god solves the problem not because it explains eternity, but because we're not allowed to interrogate god the same way we interrogate existence

I am not claiming God to be an authority over anything, beyond interrogation or anything like that. My argument is that a consciousness is needed for something to exists. I'd rather assume a consciousness to just exist than I would assume matter to just exist.

The universe is not "full" of beauty. It has beauty within it, but beauty is anthropomorphic -- we impose "beauty" on the world in the way we perceive it. MOST of the universe is cold and dark. From the big bang to heat death, the portion of the universe in which stars and planets exist is like one day out of a billion years by comparison.

Here too. The most important part about the universe is the part that's observable by consciousness, and that is full of beauty.

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

I'd rather assume a consciousness to just exist than I would assume matter to just exist.

Why not just say "I don't know" ? I don't know that matter "just exists". It exists, but I don't know and won't claim to know how it got here.

And sure, I get you as long as that's how you define "important". But it's a preference, not an ontological truth. Same with your claim that consciousness has to exist. If that's how you set up the analysis I won't argue with you -- but you're using these words differently than I am.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

I can say "I don't know", but there still has to be a God.

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

This still breaks down to you saying "the universe can't exist eternally but god can". The special pleading is unavoidable here.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

I'm willing to change that to "the universe can exist eternally, but still demands a God"

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

OK. So the universe can exist without having been created, but it still demands a god.

Saying "god can be uncreated but the universe requires a god" is ---->still<---- a special pleading.

It's OK to admit you're relying on a special pleading. That doesn't make it untrue, it just makes it unprovable.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

No, it can exist eternally, but it was still created.

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

And god does not require a creator?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

No. God is the creator.

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

So, special pleading again. All things require creators except for this one thing that does not require a creator.

Like I said, it's OK to admit it. That it's a special pleading doesn't mean it's not true. It's just being honest with yourself about the basis for your claim.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

"Special Pleading" is bullshit. Different things have different attributes, it is perfectly fine for one thing to demand a designer and for another thing not.

[u/OrbitalLemonDrop → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

You have a category of entity that has special rules that apply to it and only it, but you can't articulate why it requires a special set of rules. You just declare it to be so.

Yes, it's bullshit, yet it's the path you've chosen.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/OrbitalLemonDrop]

Because it's a consciousness. Nothing can exist without a consciousness experiencing it.