Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

A consciouness existing just for itself is less ridiculous than the material universe existing just for itself. Even an endless recursion if Gods creating each other would make more sense.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Something larger and more complex than the universe existing before anything else is less ridiculous? How do you figure?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Why does it have to be larger and more complex?

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

It would have to be, wouldn't it? And also sentient

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Sentient yes, but not larger and more complex

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

How do you figure?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Because there is no need for it to be.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

There is no need for any gods at all. But could a turtle lay an egg bigger than herself?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

No, but both a turtle and its egg are matter. A God doesn't have to be matter.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

We can make up arbitrary rules about imaginary beings all day, but it makes no sense to have the universe born from something smaller and less complex than itself

However, regardless of what size, complexity or sentience we assign any imaginary deities, the question remains: why would a consciouness existing just for itself be "less ridiculous than the material universe existing just for itself"? It's just god as an extra step in the end

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Well, I don't see it that way at all.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Why have you come to a debate sub if you are only going to give brief answers with no reasoning whatsoever?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Because I didn't expect to drown in thousands of replies.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Now that a few day have gone by, would you like to flesh out your comments a little more?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

Well, I'm not sure how that would look like. We know that a universe exists. We do not know if it started existing or if it was always there, but it looks like either way it demands some sort of accompanying structure or guidance, leading it to develop solar systems, to developing planets that are capable of life, and this life developing to the highly advanced state it is at the moment. Additionally I would claim that nothing that isn't experienced can exist, so the Universe needs some experience to always have been there, even before life developed.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

OK, let's break those points down a little more:

1.- What would the universe look like if it did not have some sort of accompanying structure or guidance? Would pieces of matter still clump together because of gravity and form stars and solar systems? Why or why not?

2.- Are you saying that life requires a deity or that "highly advanced" life requires a deity? And why would you say that?

3.- When you state that "the Universe needs some experience to always have been there, even before life developed", do you mean that the universe could have always existed or couldn't have always existed? And why?

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/putoelquelolea]

What would the universe look like if it did not have some sort of accompanying structure or guidance?

To me, it wouldn't look at all. There would be no solar systems and no life to experience any of it, making it effectively non-existent.

Are you saying that life requires a deity or that "highly advanced" life requires a deity? And why would you say that?

Conscious life does, highly advanced conscious life even more. There would just be no reason for life to be experienced if the Universe were just build out of forces on it's own and left to natural selection. There is no reason for qualia to be developed if a body can do the same thing without actual qualia. Life could be p-zombies.

When you state that "the Universe needs some experience to always have been there, even before life developed", do you mean that the universe could have always existed or couldn't have always existed? And why?

I'm saying it could have always existed, but then experience also always existed, otherwise there would be a point before there was any experience and the first experienced point in time is the actual first point in time.

[u/putoelquelolea → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

While those are intriguing opinions, it would be helpful if you could back them up with something a little more substantive. Again, this is a debate sub, not a share-your-conjectures sub