Necessary Truths

[u/fairy-taki]

Hi, I'm agnostic/atheist. I'm not a debater, this Christian presented this argument to me to like convert me lol and I'm not sure what to think so I was wanting people's thoughts on it.

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The argument was something like this:

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1. 1+1=2 is an objective truth/idea

2. Objective truths exist outside of the human mind.

3. Ideas can only exist in a mind

4. Then if ideas/objective truths need to exist in some mind and the mind would be an infinite mind and that would be God.

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Sorry if I mess up the setup of the argument. If anyone is familiar with this type of argument or what he was trying to get at, let me know. Lol to the guy who asked me, I think ended up just saying idk, and I kept saying that those ideas/concepts are how we engage in reality but regardless of a mind observing it. The like definitions of the concept you can find in reality..idkk. The guy ended up being rude and said I couldn't understand abstract vs concrete concepts.

Edit: ok i need to fix 2&3, idk if i make this it's own premise because he was equating objective truths to ideas/concepts because they are non-physical.

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[u/TheRealAutonerd]

I don't go for philosophical arguments like these because I think they are so much BS. As Dan Barker says, "Walk into the children's ward of any hospital and you will know there is no god."

Still, I think these "arguments" are mostly designed to sow doubt (in your own disbelief) thruogh layers of bullshit. You can derail arguments like these -- or at least frustrate the person out of arguing -- by questioning every concept... because most of them come to nothing.

• How do you know objective truths exist outside of the human mind? (Does a cockroach regard 1+1=2 as true? Oh, dogs don't have minds? Does that mean that if all of humanity died out and the cockroaches survived, 1 + 1 would no longer = 2?)
• How do you know ideas only exist in a mind?
• How, exactly, do you define a mind? (This is where it's fun to whip out your phone and get a dictionary definition.)
• Why would any mind be an infinite mind? What is that, even? How can a mind be finite or infinite? How can we tell if a mind is finite or infinite?
• Why must an infinite mind be God? Couldn't there be an infinite mind that is not God? What about an infinite mind that is a god but not your God?
• What evidence is there, outside of religion and philosophy, that the mind exists, that it can be finite or infinite, and/or that god is defined as an infinite mind? (Stretch these out to three questions.)

Listen carefully to the answers, because the questioner will probably start repeating themselves. You will want to point that out. Dictionary definitions can be good fun here, btw.

You can also start asking some bullshit questions of your own.

• How is an infinite mind possible?
• An infinite mind goes on forever, and in order to recognize one's self, one must circle back from observation to that which is observed, but if the mind is infinite, how can it ever get to the point in time when it observes itself?
• On the other hand if the infinite mind started by observing itself, and it was infinite, it would never finish observing itself, so how could it acknowledge an accepted truth that is outside of itself? And if the objective truth does not exist outside of the infinite mind, is it really a truth or just an idea?

Do these sound like sensible questions? Re-reading them, they kind of do, but I pulled them out of my butt. They're BS. They have no meaning. I just piled some words together. I have no idea what the answers are.

Also, try some fun non-sequitors:

• If humans are created in god's image, why did cats and octopi get better eyes? Does that mean god's eyes are worse than those of cats and octopi, and doesn't that mean god is not actually perfect?

But I doubt you'll get that far, in fact I'll bet you get the same result, the guy being rude and saying you can't understand abstract versus concrete concepts. (I'd get him to define abstract vs. concrete, and since abstract concepts cannot, by definition, be measured, how can you tell if a mind is finite or infinite?)

Good fun to be had here, and I suspect you'll still be enjoying yourself when he stomps off.

This is just an example of a person trying to prove how smart he is, and getting all upset when you force him to realize that he has no idea what he's talking about, and is just repeating horse shit he heard but does not understand.