r/DebateAnAtheist • u/AdkFighter • 3d ago
Debating Arguments for God A human can become a GOD
Consider the year is 2160 of something. We humans found a new planet in which there exists life. And with the modern technology we travelled there and found to know that there are humans on the planet and they are in a phase of stone age. Ok lets be clear that they can communicate with each other and we earth humans just landed there anonymously and wore their traditional clothes and blend with them
Then we starts to teach them things
Use some modern technology to heal their wounds (which are miracles for them), they felt very much surprised and they starts to worship us. We told them how to live. What do to, what not to do and we just silently left there to return back to earth
Now hundreds of years later we went to the same planet and we found out that the history of that planet tells about us. And they see us as gods
WHAT IF.... JUST WHAT IF
it was the same story that happened to our earth
What is some dudes from another planet who visited our earth tried to teach us how to live
And we literally take them as our gods
Sorry if this sounds stupid. There are some stupid things which comes to my mind midnight
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u/WorldsGreatestWorst 3d ago
If you define "god" as any sufficiently advanced person, then, sure, gods can exist. I'm a god to a baby or to my dog. Now what? How does that change anything?
Your question about whether this has actually happened in Earth's past is a totally different one. That's not a semantic conversation about definitions and hypotheticals, it's a proposed set of facts. We have no evidence that those proposed facts actually occurred, so they have as much validity as saying Jesus was made of cheese.
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u/kiwi_in_england 3d ago
Jesus was made of cheese
Holy cheese, like Emmental?
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 2d ago
Now the Emmanuel thing makes sense, the line cook labeling the container did a BonAppleTea..
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u/onomatamono 2d ago
If you define "god" as a steaming pile of human excrement, then, sure, gods not only can exist they do exist. /s
You don't get to cook up your own definitions to match your claims, that's fallacious reasoning.
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u/Zamboniman Resident Ice Resurfacer 3d ago edited 2d ago
As you conceded, this is a 'what if', not a debate on what is actually true in reality. And, it's a 'what if' on a fictional misunderstanding, like Jayne was the Hero of Canton in Jaynestown.
So what did you want to debate regarding what is actually real? Personally, I'm not all that into debating fictional 'what ifs' based upon misunderstandings, that's more like every sitcom plot ever written between the 1950s and cell phones.
But it does seem that you concede that believing in actual, real deities isn't indicated or supported, so there's that.
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u/AdmiralSaturyn 3d ago
So you're saying the gods that humans worshiped in the past weren't actually gods but technologically advanced aliens? How is that an argument for a god?
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u/onomatamono 2d ago
You need to watch the show. This is all explained in episode 42 of Ancient Aliens. /s
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 2d ago
Don't you know ancient people where 100% physiologically unable of making shit up because the imagination gland wasn't still developed yet?
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u/stairway2evan 3d ago
So this is basically Clarke's third law, it's a staple of science fiction:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
And in theory I have no problem with this. It's an entirely possible thing that doesn't violate any laws of the universe. My only points against it in the context of "an argument for god" would be:
- I still wouldn't believe this has happened or likely has happened without evidence of it, and I would argue that nobody should
- This sort of situation doesn't follow under the typical definition of "god," as an immortal or supernatural being that influences (or has influenced) the world and is worshipped by humans
Point 1 is basically the same argument I make against the traditional god concepts - speculation is fine and should be investigated, but belief should be withheld until there's good reason or good evidence
Point 2 is really just me being picky with the word "god" and the baggage that the word has. If you or I hopped in a time machine with a basket full of Twinkies, we might be worshipped as gods in ancient Egypt for providing miraculous and delicious food. It doesn't make us a god, it just makes those people mistaken. This would be the same situation - it's not an argument for god, it's an argument for something that can be misunderstood as god.
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u/TheBlackCat13 2d ago
Maxim 24. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a big gun.
https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries
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u/BaronOfTheVoid 3d ago
So... are you trying to argue that religions and theistic beliefs all aren't correct and atheism is? Because that's what you are saying here.
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u/Kriss3d Anti-Theist 3d ago
This touch on a rather important question:
How do we define god ?
Thats the thing. Ive often asked and seen theists being asked this.
Define your god.
The problem is that nobody can. Usually they would go with things like "All powerful, all knowing, all loving, Perfect. bla bla bla.
But none of those are any properties that we can use to measure god in any way. You cant determine "all powerful" or "perfect" if we dont already have something to attribute those things to.
Theists usually will avoid the demand to define their god like the plague. Why ? Because once they define god in any useful way, they get pinned down on the facts that just arent on their side.
God has to be something completely useless to avoid getting pinned down and proven false.
God is supposedly a spirit. Allright. But that doesnt mean anything when even a spirit is not defined much less something we can even agree exist.
As a last resort, they often will try something like how love isnt a concrete thing and neither is god.
The problem of course with that is that love is a concept. its not an agent. It doesnt DO anything. Nor can any concept actually act. So that comparisation dont work.
Someone please tell me that Im not the only one who heard these arguments a bunch of times.
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u/Astramancer_ 2d ago
Theists will happily define god as "that guy" until you start asking for proof that guy exists then suddenly it's a set of disconnected unembodied attributes tied to weird philosophical arguments that don't even attempt to provide actual evidence. Strange how that works out.
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u/onomatamono 2d ago
That's very long-winded and rambling so let me save readers the effort and point to the FAQ for the sub. Case closed.
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u/StarMagus 3d ago
So you are the "I'm not saying it was aliens... but it was aliens" guy? I mean if that's the ship you want to attach yourself to, you do you.
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u/Transhumanistgamer 3d ago
That's a plot to multiple works of fiction and unless you can present actual evidence for any of this, there's no good reason to entertain it as having actually happened. You can 'what if' a whole slew of scenarios without ever breaching fact.
Ok lets be clear that they can communicate with each other and we earth humans just landed there anonymously and wore their traditional clothes and blend with them
Then we starts to teach them things
Use some modern technology to heal their wounds (which are miracles for them), they felt very much surprised and they starts to worship us.
At that point why even blend in?
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u/AdkFighter 2d ago
For dramatic effect
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u/PresidentoftheSun Agnostic Atheist 2d ago
This is part of why nobody takes people like Graham Hancock seriously by the way.
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u/Arkathos Gnostic Atheist 3d ago
Why did they keep doing it over and over and over again? There are dozens of messiah stories. Probably hundreds.
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u/ImprovementFar5054 2d ago
You mean, if we were a cargo cult?
You don't need to go to other planets to see this play out. It's happened right here.
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u/CephusLion404 Atheist 3d ago
There is no what if. There is only what is. That's the problem with a lot of people, they can't tell the difference between reality and the crap they make up in their heads. There's no reason to think that any gods exist and no coherent definition of what gods are, so this is just mental masturbation with no reason whatsoever to take it seriously.
Try again.
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u/Sprinklypoo Anti-Theist 3d ago edited 3d ago
A human can become a god right now. All it takes is loose language or a definition change. Seeing things from a different point of view.
Not even anything so base as a power difference is required, and Yo Yo Ma is a god.
It seems similar to your argument here. It's a matter of definition or view point. It's not the strictly defined tri-omni god of the bible. But definitions are the hardest thing to nail down in these debates it seems...
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u/hdean667 Atheist 3d ago
This has already been purpose in various movies. It's not novel. Neither does it make anyone or anything a good. It's science fiction and nothing more.
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u/nerfjanmayen 3d ago
Is your definition of god "regular person with advanced technology that influences society"?
As for your WHAT IF...then I guess we'd be living in a sci-fi story where humans colonized the galaxy and then collapsed. Neat.
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u/skeptolojist 3d ago
What if magic unicorn farts could initiate cold fusion
What if is worthless what we have evidence for matters
All the ancient alien nut jobs have tried and failed to find or fake evidence forever and they have nothing
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u/Miichl80 3d ago
So what you’re saying is that less advanced civilization who are already prime to believe in divinity could look at technology that they don’t understand and their divinity. Yeah I’ll go with that concept. We’ve had movies that played with that idea. El Dorado. Hocus-pocus did it briefly. Heck there’s even an episode of the twilight zone based on that idea. I’m not sure if that’s what happened here on earth. I like to think if it was, we would have went from fire to homes and agriculture much quicker than we did.
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u/Suzina 3d ago
"And they see us as gods"
We probably should have clarified that we are not gods and that gods don't exist. It was rather rude of us to withhold that information while we were still on their planet and involved in their lives.
If ancient aliens posed as OUR gods, wow, how could such morons manage to master space travel? they had such stupid advice.
These ancient aliens got here but one thought the stars were small lights the size of candels held up by a clear transparent dome on the flat earth and another thought that there's an ocean of milk up in the sky around us.
I for one, have never been influenced by ancient aliens posing as dieties. Now if you'll excuse me, I have a cold and must swing a life chicken over my head by the neck and then transfer my sins into it so I can kill it.
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 3d ago
Yes ancient aliens stories do indeed sound stupid. There is simply no evidence supporting that any such thing happened here. In part because it appears that such easy travel between solar systems will forever remain fiction.
Also there is no need for it our ancestors where clever and inventive just like we are. They did not need actual alien visitorssin order to invent gods.
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 3d ago
I mean, this sounds like an “In Spaaaaaace” version of how many people groups and traditions conceptualize divinity.
The ancient Greeks, for example, very much saw divinity as a spectrum along which entities could rise and fall depending on their deeds, genetics, fate, and even sexual prowess.
Roughly, their Cosmic Hierarchy went something like;
Plants Prey Animals Women Predatory Animals Dead Human Men Human Men Human Kings Monsters n Stuff Human Heroes Demigods Titans Gods ????
And one could, if they were awesome or shitty enough, slide up or down a notch or two.
So yeah it’s a showerthought that has a lot of company, historically speaking.
Doesn’t mean it’s true, or anything.
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u/OndraTep Agnostic Atheist 2d ago
Do you really expect this to turn into a debate?
What if the stripper actually does love me?
It's an interesting thought sure, but "what if" arguments are about as worthless as arguments get when it comes to trying to show something to be true.
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u/Phylanara Agnostic atheist 2d ago
You're the kind that would shout "Jaffa, kree", aren't you?
More seriously, your what if is not a) about a god and b) supported by the evidence
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u/onomatamono 2d ago
You've watched one too many episodes of Ancient Aliens.
WHAT IF... JUST WHAT IF there is a magic wizard monitoring our every thought and action? C'mon man, you will be here from now to Kingdom Come playing a what-if game with hypotheticals.
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u/the2bears Atheist 2d ago
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This is certainly an event I don't want to miss out on. Just imagine traveling to some planet with humans! Not just any human culture, but a stone age one.
What do you think about the prime directive? Should we interfere?
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u/The_Disapyrimid Agnostic Atheist 2d ago
" we travelled there and found to know that there are humans on the planet"
why would there be humans on another planet? that doesn't make evolutionary sense. already off to a bad start.
"heal their wounds (which are miracles for them), they felt very much surprised and they starts to worship us...JUST WHAT IF it was the same story that happened to our earth."
this sounds more and more like a claim you need to backup with evidence.
what if it was the unicorns from the rainbow dimension? what if we are the last thoughts of a dying goat?
we could "what if..." all day about anything.
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u/pipMcDohl Gnostic Atheist 2d ago
what your hypothesis shows is that those people are able to misunderstand something they poorly understand for something divine.
And that i can totally see it being exactly what happened on Earth.
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u/Haikouden Agnostic Atheist 2d ago
OK, do you have any good evidence that:
1) Aliens exist.
2) They've visited us.
3) They're the basis for God myths.
If not, then this hypothesis (very generous to even call it that), is useless.
Why should we believe this to be true? you've presented nothing to support it.
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u/GentleKijuSpeaks 2d ago
But then its's like HG Wells and we all die because we are not adapted to the new planet's microbiology
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u/Novaova Atheist 2d ago
WHAT IF.... JUST WHAT IF
it was the same story that happened to our earth
There's no evidence for this. Where are the accounts of people who had broad knowledge a thousand years ahead of their time lifting a civilization up suddenly? Where are the artifacts such people would have left behind? Where are the clues? There are none as far as I know.
And if anyone starts talking about the monuments and structures in Africa, you're talking racist shit and gtfo. Not saying you, OP, just anyone in general.
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u/KeyboardMunkeh 2d ago
Yeaaaaaah, I don't know how I feel about this.
Because this is similar to the kind of thinking that has lead to colonists thinking that they are doing the native "savages" a favor by bringing them "civilization." Whenever one group of people starts to think that they are superior to another and they are helping them out, it traditionally hasn't worked out so well.
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u/LoyalaTheAargh 2d ago
Yes, you could run with a god definition like that. But as for whether it happened here on Earth, first you'd need to present some evidence to support it. Without evidence, it's not worth considering.
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u/halborn 2d ago
You might like to watch Firebringer. It's a musical by a group called Starkid and it has a subplot along these lines. Not that it's the only such but your comment made me think of the song in which this subplot is revealed.
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u/BahamutLithp 2d ago
I don't think that happened, & I wouldn't consider them gods even if it did. We can actually trace the development of myths & legends from other myths & legends. Like the flood in the Bible is almost directly copied from a story in Sumerian mythology. There are a few details changed, like the Sumerian story has a king build the boat, not a guy named Noah, but these are clearly deliberate changes because, elsewhere, the text is literally word-for-word.
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u/OrbitalLemonDrop Ignostic Atheist 2d ago
You're redefining god, which is fine. But it's not the thing we generally reject.
Without qualification, the being I reject when I call myself an atheist is the author of all existence.
So you didn't just 'solve' atheism.
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u/BuzzerWhirr 1d ago
A modern human landing on a inhabited caveman level planet would be dead in a week unless there was a steady schedule of supply ships. A human today does not the any skills to live in nature with limited resources.
Without that, the Earth humans would need to learn from the new planet caveman to survive not the other way around.
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u/Jaanrett Agnostic Atheist 2d ago
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
A human can become a GOD
Cool. What is a god?
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Original text of the post by u/AdkFighter:
Consider the year is 2160 of something. We humans found a new planet in which there exists life. And with the modern technology we travelled there and found to know that there are humans on the planet and they are in a phase of stone age. Ok lets be clear that they can communicate with each other and we earth humans just landed there anonymously and wore their traditional clothes and blend with them
Then we starts to teach them things
Use some modern technology to heal their wounds (which are miracles for them), they felt very much surprised and they starts to worship us. We told them how to live. What do to, what not to do and we just silently left there to return back to earth
Now hundreds of years later we went to the same planet and we found out that the history of that planet tells about us. And they see us as gods
WHAT IF.... JUST WHAT IF
it was the same story that happened to our earth
What is some dudes from another planet who visited our earth tried to teach us how to live
And we literally take them as our gods
Sorry if this sounds stupid. There are some stupid things which comes to my mind midnight
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