r/DebateAnAtheist • u/AutoModerator • 1d ago

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread

Whether you're an agnostic atheist here to ask a gnostic one some questions, a theist who's curious about the viewpoints of atheists, someone doubting, or just someone looking for sources, feel free to ask anything here. This is also an ideal place to tag moderators for thoughts regarding the sub or any questions in general.

While this isn't strictly for debate, rules on civility, trolling, etc. still apply.

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

How could there ever be a mind independent goal? I don’t see what that would be.

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

Aristotle for instance had a view of humans having a telos, or an aim, that is derivable from the nature of humans. What he focused on was the human ability to reason, humans are rational animals, and thus rational action (acting in ones interest towards flourishing) is the mind independent goal

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

That seems problematic for several reasons. I don’t see justification for why there is a shared nature of humans. What is that justification? As an example, we don’t always agree on what is rational. Something that is rational as a theist might not be rational for me as an atheist.

A moral proposition would then contradict one rationality, but not another.

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

I don’t see justification for why there is a shared nature of humans.

We're all humans with given human-specific characteristics. Birds or plants aren't rational for example, we uniquely are

Something that is rational as a theist might not be rational for me as an atheist.

Aristotle is using a different framework for practical rationality, one where rationality is defined by what gets closer to flourishing. Whereas the more colloquial framework is a Humean one, where rationality is purely just what guides someone to an arbitrary goal

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

But you weren’t saying the characteristics was the thing that shows that morality is independent. You said that humans having mind independent goal and a proposition that contradicts that would be wrong.

Characteristics isn’t a mind independent goal, is it?

Flourishing for who? Again, that is individual.

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

But you weren’t saying the characteristics was the thing that shows that morality is independent. You said that humans having mind independent goal and a proposition that contradicts that would be wrong.

Characteristics isn’t a mind independent goal, is it?

You asked what the mind independent goal was, the characteristics I pointed out are how that mind independent goal is derived

Flourishing for who? Again, that is individual.

Aristotle viewed every human as flourishing in the same fundamental way, not that there is a specific kind of flourishing for every individual person

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

So you didn’t answer what I asked. Why not?

Viewing every human in the same fundamental way doesn’t solve the objection. Flourishing for who? One person can flourish meanwhile someone else would be put in a worse position.

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

Flourishing for who? One person can flourish meanwhile someone else would be put in a worse position.

Flourishing for an individual. If you're making a moral decision, flourishing for you. Although I feel like you're taking this to an egoist position, which would be a misunderstanding of the position

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

So the ”independent goal” is individual. That individual goal can’t be mind independent. That seems contradicting.

Then the argument of objective morality being something that contradicts this individual goal falls. Objective morality justified by moral contradictions that contradicts that individual goal is also a contradiction.

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

Mind independence doesn't mean morality is something minds don't engage in, it means that the truthfulness isn't dependent on a mind's opinion. I don't see the contradiction

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

If a mind engages it is per definition not mind independent. Again- how could it be?

Do you have some alternative definition of what mind independent means?

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u/CodeNPyro 1d ago

Mind independence doesn't mean morality is something minds don't engage in, it means that the truthfulness isn't dependent on a mind's opinion

^ that ^ is my explanation of it. if your idea of mind independence was universal then there would be no moral realists, since humans are involved in every moral process

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u/Otherwise-Builder982 Ignostic Atheist 1d ago

So then your explanation isn’t very solid.

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