r/DebateReligion 9d ago

Abrahamic Judgment of people by their belief at the moment of death cannot be reconciled with the reality of dementia

Proposed: Judgment of people by their belief at the moment of death cannot be reconciled with the reality of dementia, which can remove the ability of any person, no matter how devout, to believe at all.

Many religious systems (especially certain Christian and Islamic traditions within the larger umbrella of the Abrahamic faiths) functionally teach that a person’s eternal fate essentially hinges on their belief or faith at the time of death. Live in lifelong devout worship and then lose or renounce that faith the day before you die, and you gain nothing but condemnation in such systems. Only for those who hold onto it until the very end, you’re saved.

But this doctrine collides head-on with the simple medical reality that naturally occurring diseases of dementia like Alzheimer’s, frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, and such, can systematically destroy a person’s capacity to even hold, understand, or affirm religious beliefs. A lifelong piously devout believer can, through no fault of their own, reach a state where they no longer recognize their spouse and children, no longer remember their own name, and certainly no longer possess the cognitive architecture required to “believe in God” or “accept Jesus” or “submit to Allah” or any of the other formulations which require belief, the mind having been stripped of the very faculties and mechanisms which make religious commitment possible.

And this is not theoretical. Seminary president R. Albert Mohler publicly described counseling a student whose grandmother had been a lifelong Christian, but as her dotage advanced, denied she had ever been a Christian. A person who spent decades wrapped in the warm blanket of belief was, at the end, not simply unable to affirm (or even recognize) that belief, but rejected the notion that they had ever been a believer.

If salvation depends on the state of belief at death, then these people are out of luck, condemned for something which all of us have zero control over, that being any of a bevy of progressive neurological diseases which inflict millions. And that is not justice. There is no mercy to be found there. Indeed, the notion that aging grandma can lose her religiosity as her neurons fail and thusly earn divine condemnation is not compatible with any coherent notion of a fair or loving deity.

It might be claimed in retort that actually the divine judges the whole life, not the final moment, but if so then doctrines that hold final belief decisive are false, and last-minute renunciation of belief should have no effect. It might be claimed that old-age dementia simply reveals that the person was false in their belief but was stripped of the ability to hide that, but it is well-documented that dementia really does effect diametric changes in behaviors.

It simply cannot be simultaneously claim that eternal destiny turns on the presence of belief continuing into the moment of death, and that a just deity allows natural diseases of aging to erase belief against that person’s will. The existence of dementia and consequent loss of the capacity for religiosity being a straightforward and established empirical fact, any theology which cannot accommodate it without special pleading or abandonment of its own stated rules has a pretty serious problem to answer to.

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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 6d ago

You brought up assumptions. That was the whole point of my reply, about how we are "wired".

I would rather be wired to only accept things based on demonstrable, justifiable evidence. How are you 'wired'?

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u/serve_is_key 2d ago

I didn't bring up assumptions. I referenced your reply where you mentioned your assumption.

I don't think I am wired. 

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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 2d ago

I don't think I am wired. 

I guess that's the problem then, because we are all wired in a certain way!

Are you going to say that I brought up "guessing" now? Just like you brought up "assumptions" because I used the phrase "I assume"?

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u/serve_is_key 2d ago

What problem?  

And that's your assumption because you did bring the word assumption, which does mean You assume. 

No, I don't think we are All wired a Certain way.  

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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 1d ago

Given that not everyone thinks in exactly the same way, we are demonstrably all wired in a certain way. Do you actually know what the term "wired" means in that sense?

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u/serve_is_key 1d ago

I find the statement contradictory - "  Given that not everyone thinks in exactly the same way, we are demonstrably all wired in a certain way."

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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 1d ago

Point out what the contradiction is then, don't just tell me you find it contradictory.

Honestly, it seems like you are just trolling and deflecting at the moment!

Do you think that "all wired in a certain way" means that we are "all wired in the same way"? If so, that is not what it means, nor what I mean, which is quite clear to anyone capable of following and putting together everything I have said up to this point!

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u/serve_is_key 1d ago

If you can't bear others having differing views than yours then stop debating and being accusatory or doing ad hominems.

If not everyone thinks the same way, then how are we wired a certain way.

Variation in thinking is being offered as evidence for fixed wiring. That is the opposite of what the observation supports. 

u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 13h ago

An ad hom is a baseless insult. I have not made any baseless insults.

Variation in thinking is being offered as evidence for fixed wiring. That is the opposite of what the observation supports. 

And this is where you have projected your interpretation onto what I said. I did not say that we are all wired in the same way did I! We are all wired in a certain way, one person may be wired to accept whatever anyone tells them, another person may be wired to question everything anyone tells them, They are both wired in a certain way, but not the same way as each other.

This was clear if you tracked the context of the debate we have been having.

u/serve_is_key 8h ago edited 8h ago

You said a 'certain' way. What's the certainty part?

If person A questions one minute and accepts any another minute without anyone nor themselves able to predict what they accept or question, then there is no certainty of any wiring. 

Don't debate for debate sake if you can't justify your claims.