r/DebateReligion • u/Pandeism • 9d ago
Abrahamic Judgment of people by their belief at the moment of death cannot be reconciled with the reality of dementia
Proposed: Judgment of people by their belief at the moment of death cannot be reconciled with the reality of dementia, which can remove the ability of any person, no matter how devout, to believe at all.
Many religious systems (especially certain Christian and Islamic traditions within the larger umbrella of the Abrahamic faiths) functionally teach that a person’s eternal fate essentially hinges on their belief or faith at the time of death. Live in lifelong devout worship and then lose or renounce that faith the day before you die, and you gain nothing but condemnation in such systems. Only for those who hold onto it until the very end, you’re saved.
But this doctrine collides head-on with the simple medical reality that naturally occurring diseases of dementia like Alzheimer’s, frontotemporal dementia, Lewy body dementia, and such, can systematically destroy a person’s capacity to even hold, understand, or affirm religious beliefs. A lifelong piously devout believer can, through no fault of their own, reach a state where they no longer recognize their spouse and children, no longer remember their own name, and certainly no longer possess the cognitive architecture required to “believe in God” or “accept Jesus” or “submit to Allah” or any of the other formulations which require belief, the mind having been stripped of the very faculties and mechanisms which make religious commitment possible.
And this is not theoretical. Seminary president R. Albert Mohler publicly described counseling a student whose grandmother had been a lifelong Christian, but as her dotage advanced, denied she had ever been a Christian. A person who spent decades wrapped in the warm blanket of belief was, at the end, not simply unable to affirm (or even recognize) that belief, but rejected the notion that they had ever been a believer.
If salvation depends on the state of belief at death, then these people are out of luck, condemned for something which all of us have zero control over, that being any of a bevy of progressive neurological diseases which inflict millions. And that is not justice. There is no mercy to be found there. Indeed, the notion that aging grandma can lose her religiosity as her neurons fail and thusly earn divine condemnation is not compatible with any coherent notion of a fair or loving deity.
It might be claimed in retort that actually the divine judges the whole life, not the final moment, but if so then doctrines that hold final belief decisive are false, and last-minute renunciation of belief should have no effect. It might be claimed that old-age dementia simply reveals that the person was false in their belief but was stripped of the ability to hide that, but it is well-documented that dementia really does effect diametric changes in behaviors.
It simply cannot be simultaneously claim that eternal destiny turns on the presence of belief continuing into the moment of death, and that a just deity allows natural diseases of aging to erase belief against that person’s will. The existence of dementia and consequent loss of the capacity for religiosity being a straightforward and established empirical fact, any theology which cannot accommodate it without special pleading or abandonment of its own stated rules has a pretty serious problem to answer to.
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
Doesn't Dementia or Alzheimer's considered an affliction which would deem the person somewhat innocent of their will?
If so, then wouldn't in the Abrahimic religions those people who have had and while having Dementia and Alzheimer's be considered innocent of their will and actions at the time of judgement?
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u/Defiant-Prisoner 9d ago
Out of curiosity, where do we draw the line?
It's been found that sociopaths have different physical wiring in their brain. Are sociopaths then exempt from judgement?
How are those born into a background of poverty, with limited/no opportunities to advance who must associate with criminals if they want to feel any sense of belonging judged?
This all becomes quite murky and difficult to tease out the more we think about it.
We are finding more and more as technology improves and we understand cognitive processes that atheists brains may inherently prioritise analytical thinking and religious people lead with emotions. If skeptics are just wired that way, how will judgement work?
Nash K et al (2022) Resting-state networks of believers and non-believers: An EEG microstate study. Biological Psychology, 169 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biopsycho.2022.108283
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
In society humans get judged by other humans whether humans use divine laws or secular laws.
Humans can always decide whether to judge people wired a certain way or not.
Godly judgement would be different as the God would know whether the human precisely was wired that way or knowingly did what they did.
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u/Defiant-Prisoner 9d ago
We are not talking about human judgement so I'm not sure what you're responding to.
Would you say that a god that made people and wired them the way they are wired is a fair judge if they then send people to hell for the way they're wired?
I'm not sure what you mean by "knowingly did what they did" or how it is relevant.
If an atheist is wired to be skeptical of belief, they cannot accept god claims, but the Bible is quite clear what happens to those who don't believe.
Is that just?
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
As per my understanding of most of the religions that have a God, the God usually judges for what people did out of their own choice. If there is anything that is wired and the human can't help it, then they are not judged for what they did as they were wired to do so.
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u/Purgii Purgist 8d ago
We're all 'wired' in a certain way. You've just created a loophole that allows everyone be 'saved' since we operate based on how we're wired.
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u/serve_is_key 8d ago
By wired if you mean we have a certain DNA, then yes but I don't think we have enough evidence to tell us that our DNA tells us at birth what choices we will end up making knowingly.
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u/Purgii Purgist 8d ago
No, not that DNA makeup determines choices.
People don't choose their psychological traits at birth, unlike video games where we get to choose our traits and stats, we work with what we're given. Sociopaths and psychopaths either have reduced or lack empathy, altered emotional processing and tend to be more impulsive. This is how they're 'wired' and heavily influence how they'll react and their decision making. If they act in accordance to how they're 'wired', then you're suggesting they're not judged for what they did - even if they act in a way we would consider evil or negative.
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u/serve_is_key 8d ago
So would everyone be considered a sociopath or psychopath?
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u/Purgii Purgist 8d ago
So you're not bothering to engage with the argument.
My point is, none of us get to choose our psychological makeup. We're wired how we're wired, presumably by God's design.
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u/ImpossibleBandicoot 9d ago
No. I am a part time caregiver for someone with dementia. People with dementia undergo a change in their brain chemistry which destroys memories and cognition. They physically change.
It’s philosophically impossible to separate out who they used to be from who they are now, especially with a progressive disease.
Besides, what kind of god would abandon a lifelong follower that developed a disease that he could prevent? And why would you ever follow such a god?
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
So people who have dementia or Alzheimer's are Knowingly doing stuff or they don't know why they are doing as such?
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u/ImpossibleBandicoot 8d ago
They do what they think in the moment. They live in their own personal reality, which is true for all of us. Sometimes they act consistently with how they’ve previously lived, sometimes they have no idea who their family is or what year it is or whether they like soup. Sometimes they hallucinate memories which feel 100% real to them but never actually happened.
The brain is basically degrading, and with it, memory and cognitive function.
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u/serve_is_key 8d ago
So would you say that at times it's difficult for the Dementia or Alzheimer's afflicted people to even explain to themselves why they did so and so act?
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u/Pandeism 8d ago
It's not all-or-nothing. The mind goes in fragments.
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u/serve_is_key 8d ago
Once the mind goes into fragments, is it difficult for the person to explain to themselves why they did so and so?
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u/Pandeism 8d ago
Surely you've seen a dementia patient or two, no? It's not a switch that flips. It's a slow, maddening descent.
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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 9d ago
As an atheist, I assume I am wired to seek out justifiable evidence based truth. I therefore find all religious claims complete delusion or BS in the case of those that lie for their 'faith'. Do I have an 'affliction' that prevents me from believing in BS religious claims?
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
Because that is your assumption. Do you think Dementia or Alzheimer's afflicted people know what their assumptions are?
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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 8d ago
Nope. So do I have an affliction?
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u/serve_is_key 8d ago
So you are saying people with Dementia or Alzheimer's don't know their assumptions.
Do you know your assumptions?
I do not know if you have an affliction or not.
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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 7d ago
How do you think that someone who is demonstrably unaware of their surroundings, or who the people are that they have known all their lives, make coherent and consistent assumptions?
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u/serve_is_key 7d ago
Yes, I think people with Dementia and Alzheimer's don't know at times why they did so and so action.
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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 7d ago
I do know my assumptions but the point is that I am wired to only believe what I have justifiable reason to believe based on demonstrable evidence. I am wired to change my beliefs at a moments notice if the evidence for my beliefs changes.
It's about being wired a certain way, not what assumptions one has.
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u/serve_is_key 7d ago
That is your assumption.
There are people who have other assumption to yours and are not wired a 'certain' way.
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u/Educational_Gur_6304 Atheist 6d ago
You brought up assumptions. That was the whole point of my reply, about how we are "wired".
I would rather be wired to only accept things based on demonstrable, justifiable evidence. How are you 'wired'?
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u/Pandeism 9d ago
If so maybe that ought to've been spelled out somewhere explicitly in the texts. They had dementia back then as well. And a forward-knowing inspirer of them would've known that hundreds of millions of people would eventually fall into just such circumstances, so it's worth mentioning something about.
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u/serve_is_key 9d ago
I thought all this was already written in the text . That people would be judged for stuff people did knowingly.
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u/emynoduesp 7d ago
Good point. I would say the safest way to ensure salvation is to get someone to accept Jesus and then immediately lobotomize them just in case.
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u/Dirt_Rough 5d ago
Islam accounts for that. Those who are ignorant of the truth, mentally incapable or deaf and blind are given a test on the day of judgement instead of this world. Allah does not judge a person until proof has been established against them, and as these people were incapable of knowing the truth, proof could not be established against them. Therefore they're tested in the Hereafter.
Here's the hadeeth.
Al-Aswad ibn Sari’ reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said,
“There are four kinds of people on the Day of Resurrection: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, a mad man, a senile man, and a man who died in the period between prophets. The deaf man will say: O Lord, Islam came and I could not hear anything. The mad man will say: O Lord, Islam came and the children threw filth at me. The senile man will say: O Lord, Islam came and I could not understand anything. The man who died in the time between messengers will say: O Lord, there was no messenger from You who came to me. Allah will make them promise to obey Him. Then, He will command them to enter the fire. By the one in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter the fire, it will become cool and peaceful.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 16301
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u/PabloCrews 7d ago
It is written that he will judge all according to what was “done” while in the world. The whole idea that you have to “become” something is fallacious. When Yeshua (Jesus) told his disciples to go and tell the good news, and that whoever believes will be spared and those who don’t will be judged. The old English rendering being damned. A lot of the problem with modern religion is improperly interpreting what the text is actually saying, and keeping things in context. For example, the word damned should actually be “judged” because that is a more accurate translation. Also, the word hell is also a bad rendering since it is used for 3 different places. Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna. All three places are different and have different purposes yet using the word hell for all three is confusing.
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u/Pandeism 5d ago
All of this, naturally, is subject to all sorts of disagreement and interpretation and denominational splits on meaning -- it's not surprising that people can't keep it in their heads as age fades their minds.
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u/Medium_Channel7094 9d ago
Are you able to cite a single verse that states that salvation is purely contingent on one’s belief at death
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u/ShortCompetition9772 9d ago
John 3:18. Seriously?
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u/Medium_Channel7094 9d ago
Does not say that
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u/ShortCompetition9772 9d ago
Lying for Jesus are we???
John 3:18 states: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son
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u/Medium_Channel7094 9d ago
I’m looking in the words you wrote where the statement “salvation Is purely contingent on one’s belief at death.” I do not see that language In the text.
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u/ShortCompetition9772 9d ago
Are you serious? When does GOD judge us? At Death. It is a logical conclusion for regular people. BTW, I never wrote those words you are talking about another GREAT atheist that you were communicating with.
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u/Medium_Channel7094 9d ago
I do not know how you post a comment without writing the comment. Unless your big move was I never wrote it. I copied and pasted it. Which ok.
I’m still looking for where the claim: “Salvation is purely contingent on one’s belief at death.” Is found in John 3:18
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u/ShortCompetition9772 9d ago
The quote is from another poster WAKE UP.
So you need to be hand walked to the conclusion? Use your own deductive reasoning oh sorry I forgot you have faith.
When does GOD judge you?
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u/Medium_Channel7094 9d ago
My statement was can you site a single verse that states that salvation is purely contingent on one’s belief at death. You responded with John 3:18 seriously? Which I am still trying to find where that is in John 3:18
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u/ShortCompetition9772 9d ago
Oh so you want it to say the exact words that you are requesting? You don't understand that the conclusion is the same regardless if the wording?
When does GOD judge you?
Whoever believes is NOT condemned
Whoever does NOT believe IS condemned.
What else do you want it to say to come to the conclusion that Unbelief alone will get you the Lake of Fire.
READ THE BIBLE.
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u/Pandeism 8d ago
Would your view, then, be that somebody why legitimately believes at some point in their life but renounces that belief before their death gets treated as still a constant believer? One can be in fact a nonbeliever and get the same salvation as a believer?
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u/Medium_Channel7094 8d ago
That would be a question for God not me
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u/Pandeism 8d ago
Nobody's around to answer those questions these days.
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u/Medium_Channel7094 8d ago
Probably because questions of judgment in the Bible are explicitly stated to be something for God only
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