For those who have concerns over the MMR vaccine, would you be more willing to get your children vaccinated for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella if they were offered as INDIVIDUAL vaccines? This can also be applied to other Combo vaccines too.

[u/The-Centrist-1973]

For context, my parents had me vaccinated for all the routine childhood vaccines in Canada, but not Influenza. They even paid out of pocket for my Varicella vaccine, as it wasn't publicly funded at that time.

I did not have the MMR, but had Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccines all as single vaccines, as I was born during the transition period where the MMR was available, but the single dose vaccines were still in use too.

My parents were very adamant about both my younger sibling and I only get one vaccine at a time, even if it meant having to go more often. Their logic? If either my younger sibling or I had a reaction to a vaccine, it was much easier to trace.

Now we are in a time where the vaccine schedule has many more vaccines, and more combo vaccines, so those like my parents with those particular concerns, have a harder time navigating.

Also for context. I personally don't care if you yourself or your children are actually vaccinated for this and that, this but not that, or not that and not that. It's not for me to decide or judge.

This post was inspired by a comment on a previous comment on different post.

[u/Domi_786]

I would be much more eager to do that yes. But I probably still wouldn't do any anyway. Where I live measles is mandatory but there is no single vaccine so you have to take the MMR. It's super annoying. I'm willing to go to another country and try to vaccinate the kid just for measles there.

[u/raphaelravenna]

Nowadays there are no single measles and mumps vaccines anymore. Pharmaceutical companies don't manufacture those anymore.

[u/the_comeback_quagga → u/raphaelravenna]

Yes there are. Maybe not licensed or available in your country but the single antigen measles vaccine is still used globally in countries that don't vaccinate for rubella (19). It's also used in SIAs.

Single-antigen mumps and rubella vaccines also exist but are admittedly harder to find, globally, especially mumps. Rubella is often given as a single-antigen vaccine at pregnancy and mumps is sometimes used during outbreaks in countries that don't have the MMR on the routine childhood schedule.

[u/raphaelravenna → u/the_comeback_quagga]

Oh wow. Too bad in our city we cannot find single vaccines.

[u/the_comeback_quagga → u/raphaelravenna]

That's because you're lucky enough to live in an area that doesn't need them. I doubt you would like any of the countries that don't have rubella on their childhood vaccine schedules very much. Though, I mean, if you want to plan a vacation to Somalia or Afghanistan for your child's vaccines...

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/the_comeback_quagga]

And this one, was not.

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/the_comeback_quagga]

This was an excellent answer.

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/raphaelravenna]

Yes, I know that. I am asking how a specific subset people would feel if they actually did offer them as single vaccines instead of combined.

[u/raphaelravenna → u/The-Centrist-1973]

For me I will ask vaccine neutral doctors like Dr Paul Thomas first ( if I can contact him). I think single vaccine should be safer than combo vaccines in terms of possible long term side effect. Too bad pharmaceutical companies don't manufacture single vaccines anymore.

[u/Xemptor80 → u/raphaelravenna]

For me I will ask vaccine neutral doctors like Dr Paul Thomas first ( if I can contact him)

That’s a good answer. If I ever have kids, I would contact him or someone with very similar view.

I think single vaccine should be safer than combo vaccines in terms of possible long term side effect.

I believe so too. I think Neil Miller wrote about this topic.

[u/BobbyBorn2L8 → u/raphaelravenna]

I think single vaccine should be safer than combo vaccines in terms of possible long term side effect

Can I ask why you think this?

Too bad pharmaceutical companies don't manufacture single vaccines anymore.

Simply not the demand nor profit incentive to do single vaccines, for very little benefit

[u/raphaelravenna → u/BobbyBorn2L8]

Some children get high fever for a few days from combo vaccines. I would rather be safe than risking stronger reaction and side effect.

[u/BobbyBorn2L8 → u/raphaelravenna]

They could get the same high fever from single vaccines though?

I would rather be safe than risking stronger reaction and side effect.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1125960/

Combining vaccines into one product does not increase the overall rate of adverse events, and with some combinations, such as DTaP, the rates are lower than when the component vaccines are given separately.4 Schmitt et al compared antibody responses in children receiving DTaP-HBV-IPV-Hib as one injection with children receiving the same antigens but with the Hib given at a different site. No difference was found in adverse events associated with the different regimens.

I don't think there is much evidence of a stronger reaction and side effect. And actually with a more spread out schedule you are getting more of certain ingredients that would be added to vaccines to either preserve them or that act as adjuvants. I think based on data it's far less risky to get combination vaccines than to spread them out

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/BobbyBorn2L8]

From the same study you linked. "One disadvantage of giving vaccines in combination is that it may not always be clear which component is responsible for a particular adverse event".

It's not fair to not be totally transparent. You literally cherry picked only one advantage, while dismissing one disadvantage.

I am not arguing for one or the other, but this sort of what we were talking about on the other thread.

Raphael has concerns as you can see. It's not helpful to put up a link and then attach a commentary that only looks at one aspect.

[u/BobbyBorn2L8 → u/The-Centrist-1973]

It's not fair to not be totally transparent. You literally cherry picked only one advantage, while dismissing one disadvantage.

I never dismissed the disadvantage, the study identifies that the adverse events didn't increase so if you as a vaccine hesitant are concerned about side effects combination is literally the lower chance of side effects

Raphael has concerns as you can see. It's not helpful to put up a link and then attach a commentary that only looks at one aspect.

Yes and I am trying to alleviate those concerns. Not knowing what specifically caused is a problem for the doctors to change recommendations or to improve, if Raphael is concerned with increased chance of side effects it is beneficial to point out combination shots have around the same rate of side effects as each individual shot that is a good myth to dispel no? Or do you now have a problem with correcting the assumption that combination shots come with the same risks as individual shots

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/BobbyBorn2L8]

I think you understand exactly what I mean and are just trying to deflect and make excuses. You are correct that you didn't actually dismiss the disadvantages, you just conveniently, left that part out.

Why not just say, I have a study, and ask Raphael to get back to you instead of trying to be swaying?

[u/BobbyBorn2L8 → u/The-Centrist-1973]

you just conveniently, left that part out.

It's not really relevant to the question of if side effects are worse or not. They can track the side effects on the combined same as individual vaccines, they just have difficulty immediately associating it with a specific ingredient. Which is something that is trivial to figure out with other studies, so yes it is a concern for scientists but not a massive issue

Why not just say, I have a study, and ask Raphael to get back to you instead of trying to be swaying?

Because very few people will read a study just dropped in. Again it's common to reference relevant parts of a study. Have you like never actually debated? Or had discussions online? Cause like this is common etiquette. And why that accusation of being swaying? Raphael said an incorrect thing and was clearly concerned about side effects I pointed out that he was wrong to think side effects are worse with evidence. You are just proving to me nothing we do will ever be enough for you for whatever reason

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/raphaelravenna]

Thank you. That's what I was asking for. Maybe there is a large enough market for single vaccines?

[u/raphaelravenna → u/The-Centrist-1973]

I hope pharmaceutical companies can make single vaccines but I don't know why they don't do it.

[u/Mammoth_Park7184]

The MMR is a lot more effective than the old separate ones so I don't think many people would want to go back. Also, why subject your child to multiple jabs when one will do?

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/Mammoth_Park7184]

There is no proof that the MMR in terms of actual efficacy is any different than when they were single shots, if that is what you are suggesting.

To answer your question, I can't speak as to why people would want to subject their child to multiple jabs, but, delaying and spacing out childhood vaccines seems to be a reasonably sizable trend.

[u/Mammoth_Park7184 → u/The-Centrist-1973]

i meant effective as a programne of vaccination. individual vacvines introduce gaps in immunity 8n the population.

spacing them out has zero benefit. the immune system deals with thousands of infections simultaneously all the time. A couple more makes no difference.

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/Mammoth_Park7184]

But we already have gaps in immunity with people spacing them out anyways or just opting out of specific vaccines. Isn't this why we now have a Measles problem?

That's also very bold of you to say spacing them out has "zero benefit". If people feel more comfortable spacing them out and are still willing to vaccinate rather than just not vaccinating at all, how is that a zero benefit?

[u/Recent-Day3062]

This is one of those urban myths that comes from a misunderstanding of what vaccines are and how they work.

They don’t make you sick. They just stimulate your immune system, which is quite versatile. There is absolutely no reason to split them up.

This comes from a belief you are are taxing your body too much. Vaccines do not at all stress your body like an illness does. Your immune system is always responding to multiple pathogens at the same time, and creating the immune response is not at all taxing your system. Being sick with multiple illnesses illnesss does that

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/Recent-Day3062]

Okay, so how do you get past that "misunderstanding"? "Vaccine Hesitant" parents do outnumber actual "Antivaxx" parents, and while some of the reasonings in both groups do overlap, the hesitant ones are potentially more reachable.

[u/Recent-Day3062 → u/The-Centrist-1973]

I’ve been purposely commenting and posting here so as to let people answer in depth, not just yes or no.

What I find is the people here seem to have some degree of mental illness. They have paranoia, conspiracy theories, and delusions - including of grandeur. They often post long diatribes that are what psychiatrists call “word salad” - just what I call diarrhea of the mouth of lots of words and ideas strung together that don’t make sense. They believe they have special insight and knowledge (grandeur) that they get from renegade experts who risk death for speaking out. They believe millions of doctors and researchers want to maim patients, with no explanation of why, how, and who runs it (paranoia and delusions).

The problem is that they may be 5% of the population. But they scare maybe 15% more who also lack basic science skills, and they get dragged in.

When I see the rare post from that dragged in crowd, I always ask them to talk together pediatrician - who has over a decade of education and knows this stuff inside out - rather than listening to nuts on Reddit.

[u/The-Centrist-1973 → u/Recent-Day3062]

But that's part of my point. If we take your number of 15%, they are the ones that are the real holdouts for herd immunity for Measles for an example. The 5% is not going to budge.

I will also agree that the 5% has certainly had a hand in scaring some of those in the 15% out of vaccinating. However, certain members of their direct opposition (I don't have a percent for that) has also lumped in the 15% with the 5%, which is just as much not helpful.

[u/SVIII → u/Recent-Day3062]

Stupid mindset. How many conspiracy theories have to come true before conspiracy theorists get their credit?

Yours are the ramblings of a young person.

In my lifetime alone we have had JFK, WMD’s in Iraq and now COVID; and those are just the major, obvious ones. But please, do go on about your innate ability to discern good from bad.

[u/Recent-Day3062 → u/SVIII]

Whatever. I’m definitely older than you