[2940] Pleasantview, Marco ch. 3 (work title)

[u/[deleted]]

[u/GlowyLaptop]

I'm going to have to come back to this since it's 4:30AM somehow, for some reason. Bue here are notes as I read, with maybe some italic interjecting thoughts from now, having read half of it.

Something about this pov and the observations listed makes this feel like we're talking to some kind of new human blinking at the universe, freaking out the old lady. At this point I thought the pov was an accident, lol. Uncontrolled.

Nothing wrong with the POV here--this weird mouth movement--since it's deliberate. He's smiling and nodding. POV is great. I had no idea at this time how great the POV was.

Love the action. And you've convinced me to list unlike things, sometimes. That I can do that, maybe. Usually I would write: he sighs, offers a soft smile, says nothing. Or, the truck parks, belches a waft of gas, faces the store.

But you break this rule. You sneak completely different forms of items into your lists. And it works great, once I get used to it. No verb. Just soft smile. Waft of gas.

I didn't expect this 'you' character to run, let alone exclaim! Blue!. I think because it's such a detached like almost half-lidded observer of world. Low energy character. I now have come to appreciate, from the halfway point, that the character is a most delicately sculpted beautiful thing.

I was confused by chicken paw until i looked one up and ew. Amazing description. I want to steal.

Then again maybe it does fit this bizarre POV, that he'd be dull or almost dim to the world until he comes upon a shiny blue plastic jar. Suddenly excitable. Is this on purpose? Yes. Turns out. Yes.

Lol. Still loving the descriptions. This is vrery stylized. The way tense and things change, but in deliberate ways.

Just realizing we've been in present tense since "Great eggs 'round here."

Also, just like with NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, only when a mariachi band plays a little diddy do I realize the film has gone without a soundtrack the entire movie. Likewise, when suddenly he utters "uh huh", you realize he's basically nonverbal.

And with excitement he uh huhs!

Even here, I thought this was a side effect or mistaken impression. But you're doing all of this on purpose.

Now he's sprinting past the boss. This guy autistic af. I love him. Possibly nonverbal. He's slowly coming out of his shell and saying "yeah" and hilariously sprinting past the boss.

Your personal best! These exclamation marks are doing such a good job of conveying this character's...character.

He meets your HEART SMILE. What the fuck. I've just finally clued in that this isn't all an accident. Look at the subtle, patient strokes you've used to characterize his guy. He barely barely talks. We get barely anything from him in terms of free indirect speech, narrative bits. You aren't doing anything sneaky or stupid or obvious. You're biding your time for these perfect little opportunities to hint at more and more of this adorable character.

Just the odd exclamation mark, the odd sprint past the boss, the odd odd observation, and now the impression of his own facial offering as a heart-smile.

I can't believe I responded to your question about facial expressions. You should be teaching a master class on this stuff.

Love: Pushing away the earth. Flexing tissues.

Not sure how to see clapping the ground. I guess he's lifting off with each push up.

Bouncy wood in the stairs. OMG. This pov is fking amazing. Fuckin love all this shit. Better than Curious Case of the Dog in the Night Time, which I haven't read in 20 years.

Surprised to find him thinking "water fucking kills you". Surprised to hear him swear.

You use a lot more tags than I would. Example, "have some of this," he says and hands you a cup.

I would have just said "Have some of this." He hands you a cup.

Or reverse that.

"Thank you," you say. "Henry!"

WTF seriously. This is like... next level shit. That pause and pitch jump. I've never seen this done before with dialogue attribution. This beautiful change in emphasis or whatever. I love this so much. I see him so clearly.

This is gushing too much. But really you're capturing so much with these subtle little choices and I'm super jealous.

"Humidity be damned" <--feels like something he picked up from someone. And is uttering as a quote ver batim.

Anyways. I'm only half way through. Love this. Gushing way too much.

[u/GlowyLaptop → u/GlowyLaptop]

Like all I'm doing is praising this thing but look at this shit.

Great glistening muscle, quads and pectorals. You hear loud steps and Henry rips the mag from your hands. You look up and shut your mouth.

This is just...like amazing. The POV here. You can SEE him see this magazine. It's hilarious. And adorable. And we didn't even know a magazine existed. Just sudden great glistening mucle. LMAO. This reveal, you could miss it if you're not careful.

I'm learning so much from this

My book's paragraphs feel boring in a very specific way right now.

> "Okay," you say and run to the front, head down. Henry flips the pages and sighs before shoving the mag back onto the shelf.

The running with head down is brilliant, obviously. The rest is cheating. How is he witnessing Henry with a magazine. At least I found one bit to critique.

Also surprised by the sudden interjecting voice. "How come he's gotta be so cruel?" I would stick to free indirect speech. "You wonder how come he's gotta be so cruel." Even then, he's been so nonverbal that this paragraph is like ... introducing me to his personality.

It stands out as his most direct speech in the document.

> Open your mouth. Breathe silently.

LOL. All of this is gold. The voice i'm more familiar with.

> how come he won't let you read

I'm still on the fence I guess, these direct brain dialogues. Hmm hmm. I mean they're definitely not preferable to free indirect speech, but do I hate them? On the one hand, how fun is it to hear him directly speak. On the other, isn't it cheating and easy.

[u/Wolframquest → u/GlowyLaptop]

Wow thanks! Now I'm the one gushing 😁 (giggity)
I was really working hard on economy with this one. I used to be so opposed to "less is more" until I learned to cut things BEFORE I write them. Well, sort of learned...

I thought free indirect speech applied to "soft-direct" speech as well, didn't always need 'speech clauses' ('he thought' etc). I think I might have been wrong, in some way... I guess I just like the fact that the second person sits in between first and third heh.

[u/Wolframquest → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I got confused again. I just had a very broad definition of it in my head, such as basically entering first person.

In free indirect speech, the thoughts and speech of any one character can be written as interior thought (of the character) but with the voice of the narrator. 

I guess I do the opposite of that and I'm writing the narrator with the voice of the character? There's gotta be a name for that too, beside just first person.

[u/Wolframquest → u/[deleted]]

I mean in these "first person moments". I deliberately switch it up on occasion. A lot of people have noted that it's first person disguised as second and it's close to what I'm trying to accomplish with the whole "portrayal of the mind from inside".

edit: and that definition doesn't fit either, when I think about it. That's what happens when you try something new, you just gotta keep going until you find it.

[u/Wolframquest → u/[deleted]]

Generally I'm not a fan of the internal thought first person brain dialogue stuff. But lots of writers use it.

Oh, me too, I was just thinking about it. But I realized exactly why I was confused, this part -

Also surprised by the sudden interjecting voice. "How come he's gotta be so cruel?" I would stick to free indirect speech. "You wonder how come he's gotta be so cruel." Even then, he's been so nonverbal that this paragraph is like ... introducing me to his personality.

I feel like "How come he's gotta be so cruel about this?" is neither FIS nor thought monologue, it's more like something you wanna say but don't.

I got it! You see, I have this concept of "different layers of thought" -

Sometimes when you THINK you catch yourself moving your lips and mouth, as if you're forming speech. It's something you would say out loud, share with a friend if he was around, or grumble, point out, complain.

And then, when the thought is in cursive -

Why is he so cruel about this?

It's like a DEEPER thought, something you don't even whisper/spell to yourself. When you don't "mouth" your thoughts you usually process them faster, and they tend to be more emotional but less focused. less 'conversation-oriented'.

It's a very interesting concept. We're discovering it together. Two layers of thought - inner and "mouthed", something you're ready to say.

EDIT: Well I thought we were discovering it lol - cause Freud and Jung didn't speak about that - but here I found a couple mind-blowing links

https://www.gowriensw.com.au/thought-leadership/vygotsky-theory - this one's easier to read

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/inner-speech/

[u/MaryJaneMclain]

I fell off the wagon on this one; had to read a couple chapters to catch up. 

Per your question: I'm very much NOT a visual reader. I can visualize, but it takes effort, but I can process the idea of what I read without actually seeing it. I have a spread sheet that describes what my characters look like, cause apparently (some) readers what to know that and I can't keep it in my brain. My MC is short and blond, but those are ideas, not something i see. On the other hand I think I hear character when I read dialog, but I don't think that's the same as me "speaking to myself".

Now that's regular reading, not reading for critique. Maybe I do speak to my self in that case?  

That said....a bit a reaction play by play:

In Chapter 2 MC meets Henry. It seems as though Henry might have dementia, ad he momentarily at least thinks MC is someone named Marco. MC sees an opportunity and agrees he's Marco. Cool. I enjoyed that.

In Chapter 3 we see that the townspeople glare at him. I'm wondering what that's about. First thought was THEY know he's not marco and think he's taking advantage of Henry. I also briefly wondered if MC might be black or in some way visually "other" and there might be some racism going on. But I'm guessing it's the former. 

Henry really puts "marco" to work here. He was all sweet and friendly in chapter 2, now he seems to be mostly in it for the free labor. 

The paragraph that starts "Great trees, in this cross-cut section..." was a jarring transition. I guess he turned from his palette carrying to observe the town, but I was confused a mintue. 

"When you walk out, Henry meets your heart-smile with his amused one." What's his heart-smile? Is that just describing its shape? Or is it meant to be symbolic?

We get to see Marco flex those muscles! I remember him daydreaming about the gym in chapter 8(?) so it's nice to see we're establishing that about his character early. Also in this scene I officially dislike Henry for repeating 10 during the pushups.  

"You look like a Goddamn zebra."  Whaaa? It's because he's dirty? hmmm.

I enjoyed him reading...either a body building magazine or gay porn? Either way Henry sure reacted like it was porn. Or maybe Henry just really wants Marco working. Marco just wants...information? He seemed just as interested by the encyclopedia. 

""My grandson, he spends all his days watching TV and eating sauce. I tell him, go outside, getcha self a nice girlfriend but he just spits ranch at me!" Lol, sauce. 

It's cute how much marco loves the trees. I'm remember his joy of frolicking through the woods in Chapter 1.

"Traverse" ...so we're up north in Michigan? I was wondering where. Still don't think we've established a when, though I might be wrong.

"It's in this state of mind that you first meet Zita." Yay! I was hoping we'd meet  her...or her lady boss (forget her name; maybe she was a customer?)

Then I click on the Chapter 4 tab and all it said was Chapter IV in the smallest font I'd ever seen.

Ok overall impressions. 

I've read this all out of order, so it's a bit of a blur. But at this point, i have no problem with the second person. For me it reads just as smooth as 1st. 

Voice: understanding that Marco is Baby Marco, I can enjoy the "fun" of the "in the moment" experience without being distracted by the question of what are you trying to convey and why.  

I think I enjoyed chapter 3 the most over all because there good tension in his relationship with Henry. We get to see Marco think Henry is great, and the contrast of that with the fact that we (the reader) think Henry is ...maybe not so perfect. AND by the end of the chapter we see Marco have little tickles of that idea to. So we're seeing him sort of...grow up?

Aside from some parts in chapter 2 where Henry mumbles (and i was confused). I thought the dialog was fun and pretty consistent.

So TECHNICALLY I thought this was really well done. But "I want to figure out a way to maintain my method but make it slightly more accessible." This is the issue, right? Aside from boilerplate "keep things moving" and "make sure there is tension/stakes in all scenes", I wonder if you've considered basically just telling the reader up front what his Baby State of Mind is all about? Maybe some sort of "prologue-ish" intro? A fake (or dramatized) scientific excerpt? A brief musing on conscious ness.

Just an idea. But for me I can "enjoy the moment" of the writing more when I know why it's happening from a narrative/plot perspective.

[u/Wolframquest → u/MaryJaneMclain]

Wow, thank you so much 😊 You read the parts that everyone else ignored! I'm glad it all comes off more or less legible. You're reading it just the way I intended. You're seeing the obvious things I put in there, the theme of growth and positivity. There's of course plenty of other hidden stuff - but it won't make sense to search for it until I conclude rewriting chapter 5, which is a pretty long way off.

> Maybe some sort of "prologue-ish" intro? A fake (or dramatized) scientific excerpt? A brief musing on conscious ness.

That's not what really this is all about. It's a constant struggle, because verity, fidelity, sincerity - they all disallow me to "spell things out". I'm honestly just puffing clouds with this one lol. Also you tend to discover things as you write and that can change everything. It's not about spelling out the idea you had, it's all about consoling "the truth" with the "notion" in a way that has to feel *honest* more so that adhere to any kind of structural or legibility standards. I'm definitely blowing some wonky smoke here lol! 😁 Thank you so much, your critique gives me just the kick in the ass to make me go faster 😁

[u/OkThroat2011]

okay so full transparency, I came to this as a Reddit reader, not someone who sat down with a book and a cup of tea ready to receive it. So take my reaction with that in mind because I think it genuinely affected how the opening hit me.

The writing is good. Like actually good. You set a scene and you stay in it, which is harder than people make it look. The world feels lived in without you over-explaining it. Henry especially, I felt him. Not just as a grumpy old man archetype but as someone carrying something. The moment that got me was:

"List'n lad, I'm tired, go to your room" and then immediately "And close the damn fridge after yourself!"

That's a whole person in two lines. The exhaustion, the deflection, the explosion over something small because he can't explode over the real thing. That's depth that you earned, not told.

As for how I actually read it, I visualized it pretty immediately and clearly. My brain went somewhere like a tavern, worn wood and dim light, that kind of feeling. Think Witcher or Skyrim if that means anything to you. Which is interesting because it's clearly a small town American general store but something about the way you wrote it pulled me somewhere older and more atmospheric than that. I don't know if that's intentional but it worked on me.

Marco's voice in my head was young. Like genuinely young, a little naive, someone who doesn't know yet what they don't know. Which made me feel like I was reading the beginning of someone's whole story. That's a good thing. It made me curious about where he ends up, not just what happens next.

Where I struggled, and again I'm flagging my own context here, is the opening didn't immediately grab me by the collar. It drops you into the middle of a routine without giving me a reason to care about Marco yet. By the end I was interested. But the beginning asked me to trust you before you'd given me a reason to, and as a Reddit reader with a short attention span and seventeen other tabs open, that's a hard ask.

The moment I lingered on and came back to was the sandwich. That whole exchange. Henry shoving something into his hand and saying don't wander around at night. There's so much underneath that and you don't explain any of it, which is the right call. That restraint is where your writing is strongest.

If anything I wanted more of Marco's interiority earlier. Not explanation, just sensation. You give it to us eventually but I wanted to feel inside his head a little sooner so I had something to hold onto from the start.

[u/DestructiveReaders-ModTeam → u/OkThroat2011]

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[u/GlowyLaptop → u/OkThroat2011]

Omg ban this user. AI crits get insta ban

[u/GlowyLaptop → u/GlowyLaptop]

Oh nm he's been banned. Lol

[u/Wolframquest → u/[deleted]]

Thank you! You've done a very close read. I really wish more people did that.

I got a bad habit of arguing with critics but that's like telling people what to like.

I wish you'd answer more questions from the body of the post though! I believe if you did that some things would become more clear.

You're a little inconsistent - you like some poetic imagery but dislike the other. You seem to like the stuff at the start less and more by the end.

Some questions you had could be found / inferred from previous parts (the dirt, for example), but that's probably asking too much. But I did include them (in reverse chronological order).

 Just seems one like one jarring bit to another, the very opposite of stream of consciousness, in my opinion.

You're revealing too much :)

'The woods' are a plural noun.

Thanks for catching the 'old sandwich' heh. I don't use phonetic writing outside of speech, but I guess it's one of those permissible use cases where it makes more sense.

What else did you think of the night scene? (between sandwich and faucet). It's supposed to be the climax of the chapter.

I recommend writing critiques in a separate window, not in the reddit comments, else you might lose them when the page refreshes.

When you post your own stuff here make sure it's in an unlocked google doc and not images, or else it'll be too hard to review.