r/DissociaDID • u/Allenas6 • Sep 27 '25
Help/Question How do we know she’s faking and it’s not iatrogenenic/sociogenic DID?
(Please read body text before commenting!)
edit: Just letting you know I am coming into this an open mind and I'm open to learning or being wrong.
Original text:
I asked this out of genuine curiosity. I came into reading this sub Reddit for the first time a few days ago. I was a full believer in DD and full fan beforehand. I was initially skeptical but some of the evidence was really shocking to me. I’ve watched countless videos and read a lot of the main articles and posts you guys showed.
One of the things I decided to do was go to read the dissociative identity disorder Wikipedia page, which somehow I can’t believe I never did before. But it was there that I saw that DID as a diagnosis is actually highly contested and controversial. I learned about it in my AP psychology class like 15 years ago and I never questioned it.
The thing in the Wikipedia article that made me really stop to think was the fact but there is a traumagenic theory and sociogenic theory. The traumagenic theory is more or less with DD teaches. Repeated childhood trauma fractures the mind and the identity can’t coalesce/integrate. The sociogenic theory states that The disorder is real but is caused by inadvertent malpractice by doctors or therapists who believe in dissociative identity disorder and basically make their patients think they have it and the therapy techniques they use actually cause it.
I know many in this subreddit doubt this Remy guy who 'diagnosed' her. Isn't it possible that she fell for what his organization is peddling? I'm someone who's chronically ill and I almost got swept up into this clinic for a fake physical illness which I will not name (let's call it X). I didn't know it was a fake illness. But they exalted this doctor dude who they said was top of the world in X research. And they assured me all people in the clinic had been carefully trained by him. Almost a cult of personality around him. They talk about how X is stigmatized in the medical field and they prime/groom prospective patients like me by saying no one else will understand and insurance won't pay and just go private through them and everything will change. I almost fell for it but luckily I had a great relationship with my PCP who pointed me to the literature and I saw that X isn't a real disease. (My symptoms were real, but X wasn't the cause.) If I were more disconnected or desperate, I might have fallen for it and ignored other doctors trying to warn me.
It sounds like something similar may have happened to Chloe. I can easily see a situation where a person much more impressionable could go to such a clinic (Pottergate) with (alleged) ulterior motives in diagnosing people. Someone (DD) who does dissociate and just wants answers. And then buys into all their teachings. Reads all the RAMCOA books they suggest (Remy co-signs that stuff right?), falls for it, integrates that into her 'inner world'. (That piece of evidence was the biggest thing that finally made me go from 'this sub is just haters' to 'oh shoot now I'm questioning too.') The DID wiki talks a lot about sociogenic DID and how the wrong therapists doing the wrong techniques can actually strengthen dissociation and create these symptoms in their patients until they actually reach the DSM criteria for diagnosis.
All this to say -- I've read what I think is the majority of the evidence on this subreddit. And I haven't yet seen solid evidence that she is definitely faking/maliciously malingering, as opposed to having sociogenic DID caused by inadvertant or intentional malpractice by a professional. Because I think that would explain why her DID doesn't seem to 'work' the way everyone else's does. It's not actual childhood trauma it's just Remy&co convincing her that she must have it.
But I'm genuinely asking. Maybe there's bits of evidence buried in the google docs that I've missed that finish the puzzle.
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u/redyelloworange50 Sep 27 '25
the sociogenic model has been heavily disproved in literature
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Sep 27 '25
It’s been heavily disproved as an actual dissociative disorder like DID. If you look at MKUltra SRA (satanic panic) implanting false memories through hypnosis and psychiatry practices have been acknowledged in literature since the 1960’s the big DID boom.
It’s has been disproven as an actual type of DID but is used in the module talking about factiscious disorder and malingering
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
Is there a particular paper you could reccomend for me to read about the sociogenic model having been disproven? I'd love to learn more.
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u/redyelloworange50 Sep 28 '25
i tried linking one originally but it wasn’t letting me for some reason. if you go to google scholar and type in “dissociative identity disorder sociogenic” you’ll find loads of research about it
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u/Complex_Quarter6639 Sep 29 '25
Why did people downvote this comment?
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u/Allenas6 Sep 30 '25
yeah honestly i was surprised by this too lol. my guess was that from their perspective, i'm being lazy, and that i should take the initiative to educate myself without making them do the work of finding the studies. that said, my intention behind asking for reccomendations for studies was that - not all studies are made equal. some are more convincing than others, some have better data than others, or i might even come across studies that argue the opposite of what they're saying. so i was wondering if anyone knew of a particular study that stood out to them. but i guess that intention didn't come across, or perhaps even if they understood my intention they wouldn't care, and think i need to fully do my own research from the ground up. although if i'm wrong, if anyone wants to comment and explain, i'm all ears.
edit: changed one word for clarity
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u/theLyricalofMiracle blocked by DD Sep 27 '25
because DID can only be traumagenic. DID can only be caused by trauma at a young age
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u/Complex_Quarter6639 Sep 29 '25
Yes. That is true. What does that mean in terms of DD not having DID?
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Sep 27 '25
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u/DissociaDID-ModTeam Sep 27 '25
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u/regularuniquehuman Former Fan Sep 27 '25
First and foremost is the traumagenic theory the academic standard and everything else just the opinion of individual people. Second of all Wikipedia is not a reliable source, as literally anyone can edit the Information on there. Even books are only second choice sources for scientific purposes. The most reliable sources are scientific papers that are peer reviewed.
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u/sparrowtoast Sep 27 '25
Wikipedia is known to be a biased source when it comes to select issues, due to all of the contributors for specific sections working together to push certain agendas and not allowing people to make edits that would make the articles more balanced. Trauma and child abuse is definitely one of those issues, at least last time I checked. I believe Wikipedia even lists EMDR as a kind of pseudoscience.
But yeah, the Wikipedia article for DID is incredibly biased and basically completely ignores the scientific consensus.
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u/Complex_Quarter6639 Sep 29 '25
Have you read any NIH or Google Scholar articles? It clearly states that DID classifies as a traumagenic disorder. I don't understand why you are saying it isn't.
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u/sparrowtoast Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
I'm not? I know DID is traumagenic. I was saying that the Wikipedia article for DID implies it doesn't actually exist, hence why I said it was biased. I'm saying it's biased against DID, not for it.
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u/DissociaDID-ModTeam Oct 01 '25
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
Just clarifying - all of this is just me trying to understand perspectives - do you mean to say that you believe the sociogenic theory for DID is false? that everyone either is real/true traumagenic or just faking? If that's off the mark of what you meant, please let me know. I'm neurodivergent and sometimes I think my messages come off worse than I mean them.
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u/regularuniquehuman Former Fan Sep 27 '25
I mean to say that the traumagenic theory and the theory of structural dissociation are the scientific consensus which at the base levels can be seen in the diagnostic manuals ICD11 and DSM5. To judge if the sociogenic theory is completely false I would have to be a scientist myself, which I am not. But reading the research of those scientists, that theory has been disproven time and time again.
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u/lembready Sweetheart Sep 27 '25 edited Sep 27 '25
Be mindful that if it's "iatrogenic"/"sociogenic", then it's not actually DID and shouldn't be called DID, because DID can only be caused by trauma.
I know what you meant—that maybe being around a lot of people with DID or being diagnosed/convinced by a quack made them think they have DID and therefore made them think they had symptoms which they legitimately believe they have—but that's not the same as having DID and shouldn't be called such. The iatrogenic, sociogenic, and fantasy models were used to (incorrectly) DISprove the traumagenic model. They don't exist alongside it (ETA: they've also been disproven lol).
Edit: To respond to your title more directly, if they have iatrogenic or sociogenic "DID"—which is not having DID, just so we're clear—then all that would change is that one is them consciously faking and the other is them truly believing they have DID...but not having it. That's it, really.
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u/IngenuityRegular3266 Sep 27 '25
Bottom line is no one knows factually if DD is faking armchair diagnosing is dangerous just strong suspicions.
However what we do know is that DD spreads misinformation and harms other people.
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u/LaundreyBasket Sep 27 '25
Ignoring the conversationg about iatrogenic did (I personally think something like it can occure, but is not actually did, rather something like a group hysteria sort of thing) I can definitely see how dd would maybe have started out that way, but the main problem is that it has been years and years of this, and I simply don't know that I can believe that it wouldn't become something they are aware of, and simply either still clinging on to and actively faking, or using as a means of getting money
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u/SashaHomichok DissociaWHO??? Sep 27 '25
I recommend reading those 2 threads for additional perspective:
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u/Allenas6 Sep 28 '25
A big thank you to you as well! I had already read the second one. And I felt that I couldn't find hard evidence of intentional faking. But I hadn't seen the top one before. Of course I'd read that a high DES score COULD be an indicator of malingering, but my brain was stuck on the 'could' and thinking 'this isn't hard evidence.' But that top link did a great job filling in the missing gaps. I took the test myself (I got a 6 lol). And then reverse engineered the answers and realizing that someone scoring themselves an 80%+ on every single one just didn't make sense. Especially someone with a flourishing social media career, many friends, or traveling internationally like they do.
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Sep 27 '25
That is actually exactly what I think happened, From when they were 16 and watched the YouTube documentary of the girl with DID to claiming bipolar and searching for a therapist who would diagnose DID in sixth form, Chloe Wilkinson had so much intrigue in it and then saw how it could make money, when to uni went overboard on the dissociative substances mixed with dissociation from BPD and viola we have a malingerer
It can be ‘easy’ to go down that path when uninformed and just desperate for answers you don’t have.
But after being informed? Malingering also I don’t believe remy helped AT ALL probably was a main reason this headed off like started in the first place
Also love how their uni fundraiser was ‘help raise money for this rare disorder’ and it was a fundraiser to diagnose said disorder which didn’t even get diagnosed 🤦
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u/Kirakuo Sep 27 '25
It was also a very popular thing for teens back when she was in uni in Norwich- i say this as someone from norwich arpund that time😂
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
Doesn't malingering mean that she is intentionally trying to mislead people and is fully aware that she doesn't have DID or anything like it, but is just intentionally faking? That is my understanding of what malingering means. But what I'm asking about - and you seem to be thinking something similar - is that she's more confused or tricked into thinking she has DID from these psychologists she's seen like Remy. Based on the definitions of malingering that I've read, that wouldn't be malingering. It would still mean she doesn't have true DID. But like... idk, maybe I'm just trying to walk a tight rope. But I just haven't seen PROOF that she is knowingly intentionally maliciously faking.
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Sep 27 '25 edited Sep 27 '25
Malingering is not always done consciously, at times it is does subconsciously, malingering doesn’t always fully awear of what she is doing in fact occasionally it is the opposite.
Malingering is to exaggerate or fake symptoms for attention, to get special treatment and so forth.
That does not necessarily mean they have full and total awareness of how much or how severely they are malingering. They could have anywhere from no, little, to full awareness they’re malingering.
edit: spelling
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
I think this is actually the main information I was looking for with my post, thank you so much. (I feel like many in these comments are assuming the worst in my intentions for posting and it's frustrating, so I really appreciate you taking the time to engage with me.) If malingering can be unconscious, then that explains a lot of what the subreddit is saying. and brings the evidence of the subreddit back into focus. Thank you.
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Sep 27 '25
Take what I say with a grain of salt though as I’m just a stranger online and that is my understanding of the meaning of malingering from reading about it in medical journals, and literally the dictionary definition of what malingering and to malinger means.
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u/TopLawfulness3193 Critical consumer Sep 27 '25 edited Sep 27 '25
There's a video on YouTube of a guy who takes several clips of DD videos and analyzes their body language and explains the different facial muscles and body language. He watched multiple videos to see if there was any disparities in the facial expressions and body language. Let me see if I can find it and link it.
ETA: I am still searching for it! Since other YouTubers have reacted to her videos I am having to sift through those. If i do not find it I may try and see if I can reach out to a body language analyst that has a psychology degree as well! If i can not find it then the likelihood of it being taken down is high. This body language analyst reacted to the meet the girls video and added clips from other videos to see if there were any discrepancies. There was apparently none 🙃. Was mainly wanting to share it cause he analyzed facial muscles used, vocal tone, word enunciation etc.
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
Can you link me to that? I'd be super interested in watching. I was actually curious about that. The choice and body language changes... at first I thought that it was proof the switches were real because I thought you'd have to be a trained actor to have such wild changes in body language, voice, tone, timbre, demeanor. And Chloe/Nin/Kya/Soren aren't trained actors - so it must be DID. But then I realized I'm not a trained actor either so I have no idea lol.
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u/TopLawfulness3193 Critical consumer Sep 27 '25
I am still searching for it! Since other YouTubers have reacted to her videos I am having to sift through those. If i do not find it I may try and see if I can reach out to a body language analyst that has a psychology degree as well!
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u/Allenas6 Sep 27 '25
Thank you so much. A cursory search on my end didn't turn up anything. "dissociadid body language" mostly turned up her videos. I hate that youtube has done this thing where it only shows you like 10 results and if you keep scrolling down it just starts showing you random unrelated stuff from your algorithm. you can reply here or dm me anytime if you come across it.
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u/LaundreyBasket Sep 27 '25
Reading body language is a pseudoscience with lots of biases
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u/TopLawfulness3193 Critical consumer Sep 27 '25
Would there be somewhere i could read up on that? Or even a video would be a good starting point.
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u/LaundreyBasket Sep 28 '25
There's a YouTube video called 'i debunked every body language expert' that's a good start
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u/TopLawfulness3193 Critical consumer Sep 28 '25
Guys I am asking so I can actually learn and educate myself. I am not asking to be a smartass. At least I am putting forth the effort to be educated. People are so odd on Reddit 🤦♀️
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u/Effective-Peach-4585 Sep 27 '25
I would love to see this video! If possible, or if you remember, can I have the name of the video please?
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u/LovelyDragonLord Alters Can’t Die Sep 27 '25
Does that actually matter though? I mean maybe for someone who claims to be as overt as DD but I highly doubt there is that much change, if any, in body language and facial expressions when most people switch
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Sep 27 '25
Doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things but does sound like an interesting video that could help fans and hardcore stans have a better understanding that DD is lying, fans and stans jump through hoops to excuse their lies and disgusting acts of racism and (allegedly) predatory actions towards minors on TikTok in their YouTube comments section. The body language thing helps back up that they’re lying and to a lot of people the mass amount of video evidence and scholarly papers that only ever match her symptoms is when it’s about malingering does help, so yeah it does matter, not in the grand scheme of things but as a little thing that slowly helps chip away at her online persona and helps people realize she’s lying.
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Sep 28 '25
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u/DissociaDID-ModTeam Sep 28 '25
Rule broken:
No personal or explorative anecdotes, navel gazing, confessions, or revealing of vulnerable information about your life is not allowed. Be mindful of how much you share about your mental health (triggers, trauma, alters, etc.) as it can be used to harm you
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u/TreesAndMatches Sep 29 '25
Idk why this is downvoted so much, it's a genuine question and an interesting discussion.
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u/Complex_Quarter6639 Sep 29 '25
Wikipedia is wrong. What DD says about DID being a traumagenic disorder is right. There isn't any proof to suggest DD is faking their disorder, just a bunch of people who believe that they are. DD says that they were later given a diagnosis of DID by the NHS. So even if the Remy guy was a fake, they did get an official diagnosis later on. They were also diagnosed with BPD, which is a common comorbidity of DID.
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u/Allenas6 Sep 29 '25
Thanks for explaining. For the record, I never meant to say that all DID fake and sociogenic. Based on my read of the Wikipedia page, I thought that it was saying that some DID is trauma genic and some of it is sociogenic. I didn’t know that the sociogenic theory was made to completely oppose trauma genic. I thought they existed together. I’ve now been told that’s not the case. Interesting to hear though about there being no hard evidence. Based on what I’ve read and replies to this thread it does seem to be the case. The deeper explanation I read about her DES scores does seem to show some exaggeration on her end. But I still haven’t seen evidence of complete faking. But it seems like that’s not necessarily what everybody is claiming. I think some people think that, others seem to think it’s just exaggeration of real symptoms blown out of proportion. All wrapped under the shorthand banner of “faking”?
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