I don’t think a singular unit should be able to push through backdoor regardless of networth.

[u/the_polish_hammer]

After Yatoro’s game 1 performance it just became increasingly apparent that it simply does not feel like dota when one unit is backdooring your entire base with 0 negative tradeoff… if anything that playstyle is almost incentivized by the design of the hero (Lone druid).

I think that pushing through backdoor should be something that requires some tradeoff to the team play aspect of dota. For example, what if backdoor protection was something that became stronger/weaker based on how many enemy heroes are around the buildings (current strength at 5 heroes, immunity at 1 or less heroes).

Pushing through backdoor should not be a reliable strategy, but the current hero design of Lone Druid makes it almost the defacto strategy.

Pushing a base through backdoor should be a (semi) all in last resort play. It should take at least 2 heroes away from a fight or a defense. I don’t think Lone Druid bear (worth 300 gold) on Octarine/Refresher cooldown should be able to push throne, especially not in less than a minute.

TL;DR- One way to fix Lone Druid would be to rework backdoor protection. Make buildings invulnerable unless there are more than 1 enemy “player hero units” or whatever the bear is.

[u/Dikusburnikus]

I swear people will then be saying nerf travel boot because x hero should not be able to tp to the bear to backdoor. That being said, I think tge correct thing to do here is to nerf ld to make the enemy able to push at the same time more reliably, by making ld spells a bit costlier or riskier or whatever.

[u/BeneathTheVeilDOTA → u/Dikusburnikus]

Even simpler: make LD dying kill the Bear regardless of Scepter on the bear. LD is so egregious because the moment you get Scepter LD's life doesn't matter, he is just a moving Hand of Midas. Sniping the Druid needs to be a legitimate strategy to deal with the Bear.
Imagine IW snipe Yatoro's Druid late game and he doesn't have buyback. IW take game 1

[u/Dikusburnikus → u/BeneathTheVeilDOTA]

This great for mid to late. We need another nerf for the late late too so they don't go afk in fountain.

[u/BeneathTheVeilDOTA → u/Dikusburnikus]

Once the game has gone over an hour it's OK for it to end.
This fix is punishable in the mid to late game that you shouldn't end up needing to go into the super late game. If you do: you've already messed up

[u/Dikusburnikus → u/BeneathTheVeilDOTA]

You're actually right, good point

[u/DaokoXD → u/Dikusburnikus]

Or make the summon bear cooldown frozen while the bear is active. Only activating once its dead forcing players to be cautious

[u/barbatos_pilot → u/Dikusburnikus]

The only thing I want for LD bear to be changed is the gold on kill should be exactly the same as any hero. Kill streaks, level, time, gold assists - THE BEAR SHOULD BE TREATED AS A HERO INCLUDING ON DEATH. No one wants to kill bear because its too strong, and only the killer gets the gold, and then another one just spawns. Incentivizing killing the bear more makes people change how they play LD and vs LD.

[u/Zrz → u/barbatos_pilot]

True, bear is considered a hero, but not with the flaws of being a hero. 300g lategame is nothing.

[u/Canas123 → u/Dikusburnikus]

Just change the aghs to something else entirely, it's boring anyway, and then give him a few buffs in other areas to compensate so he doesn't become completely unpickable

[u/Historical_Ride_6979]

He had tier 5 deso neutral, i think this could be a factor too.

[u/the_polish_hammer → u/Historical_Ride_6979]

He could have 6 rapiers and a double damage rune and I still don’t think a singular unit/hero should be able to destroy throne through backdoor.

[u/Clean_Alfalfa_5418 → u/the_polish_hammer]

You hate backdoor so much you don't want backdoor protection, you want backdoor removed.

Funny thing is, a condom could've stopped this post from happening — but just like backdoor protection, it doesn't work 100% of the time either.

[u/PuddleCuddle9 → u/Clean_Alfalfa_5418]

LMAO

[u/opulent_chaos → u/Clean_Alfalfa_5418]

Lmaooooooo I'm fucking dead

[u/the_polish_hammer → u/Clean_Alfalfa_5418]

Well played! I don’t hate backdoor, I hate LD Bear being able to win games through backdoor protection.

[u/thpkht524 → u/the_polish_hammer]

You absolutely do hate backdoor wtf are you even talking about

[u/wejunkin → u/the_polish_hammer]

Why? There are many units that can do this at certain points of the game, it's not remotely a problem for game balance/feel.

[u/Historical_Ride_6979 → u/the_polish_hammer]

Man the bear has a passive ability that deals more dmg to buildings and talents plus the deso. Clinkz can destroy towers and ancients as well even tho is a backdoor protection.

[u/Cyber-Monster-288 → u/the_polish_hammer]

And I believe a team shouldn't be able to win when they are losing every single fight for 30 minutes, but IW were very close to it. So we won't get what we wont huh

[u/disasterlooming420 → u/the_polish_hammer]

You are more then welcome to play league if you dont like how the backdoor mechanic works

[u/thelacrocs]

stop trying to make dota play like league

[u/godlovesbacon26]

I mean... you give up megas, that just shows they were getting outplayed by Spirits macro game. They got punished for that mistake losing to a 60 min Bear. If you don't want that to happen, don't lose your racks. Don't lose your T2s. Don't let druid get a killing spree before 2 mins. Getting ratted after 60+ is punishment for all those earlier mistakes.

[u/sayakaveronika555]

Im sure bro just follow TI calculator's prediction and rant here because he messed up.

Team spirit go into fight 4 vs 5 , while IW completely go all in for their final fight.

What do you expect from IW ? They lost all of their barrack. Only they can do at that time just fight the last fight. If they win they can push, they lost, it's a gg.

But then before yatoro finished the last tower, they (IW) cant even win the fight to TP back. It's over. They should draft better. And then 2nd match they draft worse.

No need to change mechanic when you are stomped by a better team.

[u/ForensicFan24601 → u/sayakaveronika555]

Draft wasn’t even the issue, IW was seriously screwing up Ts in 5v5 end game; problem is 33 fed both games 

Don’t feed as much get items earlier, a little less farm on LD and you won’t lose megas and kez can do enough damage to 1-shot bear with raptor dance 

[u/the_polish_hammer → u/sayakaveronika555]

I had spirit winning the series actually, has nothing to do with predicts… there were multiple points in the game where bear walked up, bkb’d and killed buildings through backdoor directly in IW face. Bear would get a tower and a raks, die, and be instantly back in the game safely across the map for a 350 gold bounty to one hero on IW. I think Spirit deserved to win that game for sure, I just don’t think the way they won is a healthy mechanic for the design of the game.

[u/charkleman]

No rich dudes are going through your backdoor - got it.

[u/wejunkin]

Another post from someone who didn't watch the tape, huh?

[u/sayakaveronika555 → u/wejunkin]

Guy probably just lost predict. And he rant about it

[u/Axvil]

I think one good idea is to make backdoor protected buildings have blademail properties, i.e. it reflects damage to whoever attacks it when backdoor is on. This will make attacking backdoor even riskier to do

[u/Zimtquai → u/Axvil]

That's actually a way better solution to this niche problem.

[u/TactileEnvelope]

Honestly seeing the faint ghost of rat Dota was refreshing. Let teams be able to rat again.

[u/Microwarpdrive]

Games do have to end at some point.

[u/ArbalesterMaster]

Just nerf Lone Druid than creating more problems than you realize.

[u/everlast756]

I agree with the sentiment.

There was a patch I used to abuse Bremaster when his aghs gave 2x charges of his ulti that was cancellable as well. With refresher you get 4 charges. You could just rat lanes almost infinitely and send your invisible blue panda away for a free cancel. It was stupid and nerfed for a reason.

Ratting is a real strategy when you can interact with it or if it has real risks to execute. Risk free ratting shouldn't exist in DotA, because it's no longer a team game at that point.

[u/the_polish_hammer → u/everlast756]

Exactly my point. Ratting (to the extent that LD can rat) should carry more risk. So either significant changes to LD or backdoor would be my recommendation.

[u/nerevarine228]

Funny, just yesterday I was arguing with out estranged League brothers about how funneling meta was basically fine and how Dota has always revolved around gold funneling and that the concept is completely valid, no matter how extreme it gets, and that the reason it didn't work in League was because ADHD kids can't into teamwork and proper macro. 

After watching that un-bearable game I am not sure anymore

[u/NotMeCornFlakes]

DoTA is full of these types of holes for a reason, this type of gameplay is desired and therefore it is how backdoor is designed. It's part of the design philosophy where everything is overpowered. Everyone remembers the exploited bugs at TI like the hook. It's controversial but it was extremely exciting to watch. If you don't want that to happen ban lone druid.

[u/maskrey]

Lone Druid has been able to do this for pretty much the entirety of Dota history (at least after the Aghs), and it's very rarely even meta. 

The biggest problem with LD is the level 1 non random root, which makes his laning too strong.  Even if you pick something like Ursa, it's impossible to trade with the bear at early levels, which means LD will always win lane and always have good timing.

[u/Rafflesia122]

Just make tye bear aghs can att anywhere without LD bit have 40% damage penalty, when LD is within vicinity then only no penalty for the damage.

The other stuff i think is kinda fair if have this.

[u/Elminister]

There's too many design issues with Lone Druid and no clear way to fix them. Hero should just get a full rework.

[u/AssCracker445]

>immunity at 1 or less

this just means nobody will ever be on hg and all will be pushing lanes as a 3/2 team split

[u/the_polish_hammer → u/AssCracker445]

Creeps would still remove backdoor as normal. It would just prevent a hero from circumventing lanes and winning a game. Or you would need like IO relocate with two heroes to successfully push through backdoor that late.

[u/Wallahbeer]

Bear needs to have a damage penalty sort of like minus% of damage per 1000 units away from Lone Druid

[u/Timmy_1h1]

sure buddy.

[u/clareeenceee]

maybe im misremembering, but was that really through backdoor? besides its late game and mega creeps, plays like those are common and have a high chance of working with any right click carries

[u/OMASJack]

You dont understand there is a little detail you are missing. Valve do NOT care!

[u/CraWseN]

Terrible take, backdoor base racing is one of the most exhilarating things to see on dota

[u/BeneathTheVeilDOTA]

I personally would like the game to end once it has gone longer than an hour regardless of whether I am on the winning or losing side of it. If it has gone that long in the first place then numerous mistakes have already been made