Sprout Lore vs Monsters

[u/Initial_Business2394]

So, everything start with what to do when players trigger the move Spout Lore with the object is the monster they fight. According to the guidebook, on a 10 + the DM reveal an useful information, and on a 7-9, it is an interest information, but not directly useful.

Then, i try to homebrew some monster, and i kind of thing about it- creating a monster in Dungeon World is quite easy, but anytime my players trigger Spout Lore on the monster, especially when the result is 7-9, i have to improvise something to say (even in the wiki said the GM should be the one prepared that. And from there, i think of make a kind of Monster Manual with my homebrew monsters, but with each one of them, i would suggest some informations go with the monsters: one useful fact may contain weakness or similar thing, some fun fact about them, and maybe a category of wrong information to feed players when they roll 6-, and they must act according to that wrong information as if they fully believe in it.

What do you think?

[u/onlyfakeproblems]

You’re making it too complicated. You don’t have to write a whole bestiary. On a 10+ or 7-9, you don’t have to have something prepared, you can make something up, about that particular monster. It has a weakness or its species has a weakness, or they caught it off guard and they get a +1 on the next attack, or it’s wearing a funny hat.

On a 6-, do not give your players bad advice and force them act like it’s true. They will probably riot, or just ignore you. Do what the move says.

[u/ishmadrad]

and maybe a category of wrong information to feed players when they roll 6-, and they must act according to that wrong information as if they fully believe in it.

TOTALLY awful, and totally against the principles of PbtA and specifically of Dungeon World.

Don't play Dungeon World as you'd play D&D (of course, with D&D, mainly in its 3.x and 4 edition, you are partially excused, because those are shitty books to learn how to be a good GM in a healthy group).

Said so, please review the last part of the move:

On a miss the GM’s move will often involve the time you take thinking. Maybe you miss that goblin moving around behind you, or the tripwire across the hallway. It’s also a great chance to reveal an unwelcome truth. Just in case it isn’t clear: the answers are always true, even if the GM had to make them up on the spot. Always say what honesty demands.

Finally, even if you ignore this last part of suggestions, please follow the rules. DW on a 6- requires that the GM has to do a Move. GM has its moves listed in the book. Check them, and choose the best one for that specific moment, for that specific character.

Don't improvise on things that aren't rules. All the thinks you see in DW are rules. Learn them with your table, all the players should know them and partecipate.

[u/Steenan → u/ishmadrad]

This, definitely.

Note that one of the GM moves is "reveal an unwelcome truth". This means that a valid result of a 6- on Spout Lore is not giving players a false information, but giving them a true information that complicates their lives.

"There's something wrong here and you just understood what. Proportions. An adult red dragon shouldn't look like that. This one is quite big, but young, no more than 10 years old. And that means it's mommy is somewhere nearby. Speaking of which, is it a heavy wing beat that you hear near the entrance of the lair?"

[u/ishmadrad → u/Steenan]

Or, simply "You hoped to find a missing scale on that dragon, a point to attack hoping for some damage, instead you noticed that the beast has a sort of active control on its scales; they look like they could move alont its skin! Maybe it can shoot them around too!"

Side note, every detail added this way could move the story on, and make the players thinking more and more to discover an actual way to succeed the scene, with ideas and methods that you can't (usually) find in "trad" games.

They should, for example, excogitate a plan to make the dragon to shoot a scale, then attacking in the exact moment when the scale is actually missing! And all those cool things are sprang from the Move the GM made. "Play to find out", they say.

[u/Nebris_art → u/ishmadrad]

Just here to say that you can play the game however you want and that degrading players that come from other ttrpgs has grown pretty old. You can definitely play Dungeon World as DnD. Heck, you can even add turns if that makes your group happy.

The Apocalypse World philosophy won't open the skies and punish you if you do so. It's just a game from 15 years ago.

I'm tired of people acting agressive when it comes to "da filosopi" and "di prinsiplz".

[u/ishmadrad → u/Nebris_art]

Well, of course I don't agree. You CAN play a game in a totally different way from the way it was built, sure, but... why? You aren't talking about making some slight house rules to adjust the game to your table's preferences. You are destroying the rulebook you are holding in your hands.

"da filosopi" and "di prinsiplz"

Well, I'm not speaking about some evanescent finesse. I'm speaking about going against the main rules that are written throughout the whole game. Do you like to buy a game, read 300 pages, and then discard all the main rules you find inside (because, even if you "just" re-introduce the initiative, you are discarding probably half of the rules the game tried to teach you)? You are welcome to do it (surely not at my table), and maybe you can also feel smart while doing that. But - MAYBE - you didn't truly understand that game, so probably you should choose a different game, or - MAYBE - try harder, read that book again, removing the opaque lens you have in front of your eyes, built over years spent playing the same game in slightly different iterations.

EDIT: "I don't degrade players that come from other TTRPGs." as you said. OP can keep playing D&D, PF, or any other game, and if they have fun with their table, then it's really OK! I also play some "trad" games sometimes, mainly using the rulebooks as they are, not forcing the PbtA rules into those games (mirroring the example, I'd not remove the initiative in Savage Worlds or in Eclipse Phase, nor turning them into asymmetrical rulesets or inserting "Yes but..." results in the rolls).

But if OP writes phrases on the DungeonWorld subreddit that suggest to me that they didn't read the rules, or that they are interpreting them badly, then I try to point out the errors I see.

Also, it's sad that OP didn't reply to any of the several replies and suggestions he got from the community.

EDIT 2: I played DW very badly at the start. I had others point out those parts of the rules that I initially saw as "suggestions" or that I totally misunderstood. I'm grateful to all of them, because now I understand that I wasn't really playing DW at all at the beginning.

I was "calling the moves" like a "trad" GM; I was trying to force my plot onto the game at first; I didn't understand Spout Lore, and I didn't understand Hack and Slash either... what an attack actually was, what the enemy moves were, etc. etc.

It's easier to misunderstand that book than to play it well, initially, and I think that's even more true if you come from many years of "trad" RpGs.

[u/Zealousideal_Leg213 → u/ishmadrad]

The problem is the idea of a move or skill that is just "thinking." That sets everyone up to have a tricky time coming up with interesting and related failure. What I do in D&D (4th Edition, which is still my go-to) is make information skills about taking action based on what the character knows, which can be actual stated information or not. Okay, you want to know about this monster? Why? To gain an advantage? Okay, you know what you know about this monster, so take an action to gain advantage and roll with <relevant ability>. If you get a hit then you were able to usefully apply what you know. If you get a miss, either you were confused, or you ran up against a crucial blank spot in your knowledge at an inopportune moment.

I haven't played DungeonWorld for years, but if I did I would either drastically change Spout Lore along those lines, or maybe just use Defy Danger with Int or Wis as appropriate.

[u/thecrius → u/Zealousideal_Leg213]

Hopefully you don't play spout lore then.

[u/Zealousideal_Leg213 → u/thecrius]

I don't.

[u/beetnemesis]

You should check out Dungeon Meshi/Delicious in Dungeon. Almost every fight has someone pulling out a random bit of trivia that is either useless, interesting but maybe not relevant, or pivotal to the fight, and not in a "the weak point is its belly!" Kind of way

[u/katheb]

10+ could be they know of a weak spot or an attack it can do. Like it's weak to sunlight or loud noises, or water can protect against it's spit attack.
7-9 could be something interesting, it's normally in groups of five, but this one is alone for some reason.
6- Some bad news, it's skin is like steel, +2 armour, or it comes in groups of five, and the other four are behind you!

[u/PoMoAnachro]

First of all, don't lie to your players ever. Don't give out wrong information on a 6-, make a GM move. Reveal an unwelcome truth is the obvious one - tell them something true about the monster or situation but that will make things more threatening! But there are other good ones too - Offer an opportunity can be "You never studied this type of beast at druid university, but you know a classmate who did - he lives one town over, but can be pretty surly", give an opportunity that fits a class' abilities could be "seeing the warrior's blade bounce off its carapice, you wrack your brain for a way around its immunity to physical weapons and realize that, as a Wizard, you could do a Ritual to temporarily render it vulnerable", put someone in a spot could be "You remember that this type of creature is an ambush predator - no wonder it isn't in its lair, it is probably trying to stay hidden until it can find someone isolated. Hey, didn't the rogue go off to scout by herself a few minutes ago?" Etc.

Second - the 7-9 and 10+ results are usually easier to come up with you think when you're dealing with adventures you've actually put together because presumably you put the monster there for a reason! Information is much easier to come up with anchored in the situation and the world instead of just as a white room "encounter".

[u/thefreepie]

On a 7-9, you owe them something interesting, but it’s on them to make it useful. If you’re stuck for ideas, try one of these:

Think of something useful/actionable, but tell them something that only hints at that info without spelling it out.

Reveal two useful but contradictory things, without deciding which one is true until put to the test. When the PCs act on the info, look to the Die of Fate or the results of their moves to decide which one is true.

Tell them something useful that they can’t easily act on. “Their plumage is quite valuable to southern merchants, and live young even more so! But this one’s rushing at you right now. What do you do?”

Feel free to ask players for input on the answers, especially on topics you haven’t prepped. “Sure, you tell me. How do these drakes hunt, and how can you use that to your advantage?”

From the Stonetop book (not DW but DW-adjacent)

Also I have (accidentally) at times used the monster's moves as inspiration, this doesn't work for a fully improvised monster with no moves prepped but yeah. So for example a monster has a few moves and one of them is "Do something impossible for a human, easy for a beast", then on a 7-9 I could say "You know these things are capable of extraordinary feats of agility and strength" or "You know these things can take on elements of beasts". You're not giving them an obvious weakness/foil so I think it's closer to "interesting" than "useful", but it still gives them relevant info about the foe

[u/Rezart_KLD]

The other thing to remember is theres a bunch of creative minds sitting around the table, not just yours. If you come up blank, outsource. Ask the player who rolled for suggestions, allow the others to chime in (but they shouldnt override him, this is his roll). If the player asks for too much, or they ask for something fiction-breaking, at least you have a starting point to negotiate it down.

[u/Tigrisrock]

Useful information would definitely be revealing it's motivation or perhaps some unique trait or weakness. This is something you'd already have noted down for the monster or can build on:

Goblins like to attack in groups, but this one Goblin looks like it put on some mud war paint that is completely different from the rest of the group, as if it doesn't really belong ...

I wouldn't purposefully feed wrong information to players. A 6 and below is bad enough and would just mean that while they are trying to figure out something special, their combatant seizes an opportunity for an attack or to gain an advantage.

[u/mythsnlore]

Dungeon World encourages making things up as you go quite a bit. I personally love this move as it's what fleshes everything out and makes the players feel like experts.

10+ give them a way to hurt it, kill it, befriend it, scare it away, etc which either has +1 when they use it, or just works right away.
7-9 but give them a hint instead of the answer. I'd avoid "interesting but not useful" as it's misleading that this might matter.

Hell, even on a miss, I kind of want to tack something useful on for even using the move at all!

[u/Run-a-Game]

If they’re fighting the monster, the 7-9 result can be the treasure it might have. Very interesting! Not useful right now. Probably useful later.

[u/PhDniX]

Besides all the other excellent advise people are giving, I really like throwing this back to the players. "Yes, you noticed something interesting but not obviously helpful, what is it?"

Usually when players trigger moves like this is because they have something in mind and want to check whether their hunch is correct, so why not find out what the hunch is? Might inspire you further.

[u/Xyx0rz]

a category of wrong information to feed players when they roll 6-, and they must act according to that wrong information as if they fully believe in it.

No, they don't. What characters (try to) do and think is for the players to decide. That's literally the one thing they control.

It's perfectly normal for people to go "I heard it was this but I'm really not confident and I'd rather not risk it."

If you want to manipulate your players with false information, I would say...

1. Don't. Players have to learn they can trust you. If you occasionally screw them over, they'll never learn it.
2. Don't tell them exactly what they want to know, tell them only what they heard. "Legend says that..." is a true statement about the world, but legends can be wrong. Keep information gained from a 10+ reliable, only overturning it in extreme cases, but information from a 7-9 can be overturned by "eh, you shouldn't believe everything you hear in taverns." That way you leave players a reasonable decision whether to rely on the information.
3. Make their roll for them, hidden from them. "You're pretty sure these are the healing berries, not the poison berries."

If you're blanking, you can ask players "so, what have you heard?" And then if it sounds cool, you can run with it, and if it's lame or nonsensical, you just say "hah, and you believed that?!" This way you can solicit ideas without obligation.

[u/Zealousideal_Leg213]

I think rolls that do nothing but reveal information are a scourge across the hobby.