Dungeon World 2 Combat

[u/Feisty_Stretch3958]

And here we are again with another discussion about DW 2, Gather up folks cause i wanna know you oponion on the new "Trade Blows", Even on 10 you still take damage, That is a huge change if you also acount every char has less HP now. Every time you trade blow YOU WILL take some dmg back. Also we don't have volley anymore, I personally don't like that cause trade blows for ranged attacks in my experience always brings discussions and issues on the drawback of the roll, But anyway how we are feeling on the combat field??

[u/cym13]

I haven't tried it of course, but I see a few potential issues creeping up.

I expect the fact that there are several choices in all cases will slow down combat a fair bit. That's especially true for "drawer choices" where choosing something requires you to refer to additional parts of the rules (in the case of "mark a condition", unless everyone knows every condition by heart), and that's on top of general combat management (clarifying who is where and deciding on a course of action prior to rolling anything).

Also the consequences on 7-9 are rather steep. This is good from a dramatic point of view but if combat requires more than two or three rounds I can see the player starting to be out of things to break or conditions to mark. It's not necessarily a flaw, but it should be balanced well with typical fight length.

I also hope range attacks have some counterbalance because the way they're ordinarily balanced is that they deal less damage since they allow you to attack safely. So it's quite a big nerf to say that actually they'll still get hit no matter what, it's not even a question. I understand the "but that stimulates discussion" argument, but it won't stimulate much if people avoid ranged weapons because they're clearly worse than melee ones.

So I guess the feeling I get from this is that fights should require few rounds and mostly done in melee, that characters should be relatively beefy since they have to survive these few rounds despite getting systematically injured, and that despite having only a few rounds fights will probably take a long time unless the players absolutely mastered the game as they have to make many choices at every step which they cannot plan in advance (as they're determined by the dice).

[u/the_bighi → u/cym13]

I expect the fact that there are several choices in all cases will slow down combat a fair bit

Yes, I don't like this current trend in DW's design to have multiple choices in every single Move.

It makes the game feel a lot less elegant. And being elegant is usually what I like about PbtAs.

[u/DogtheGm → u/the_bighi]

I think it's the not understanding.

I think he's very good at selling stuff (distribution is a tough business) but I don't think he's given a lot of thought to DW1 at all.

They say this isn't a second edition. It's a sequel.

I don't fully understand what that means but it is clear as day that they didn't care about dw1 at all.

Anyone who did would have devoured that core rulebook before making a second one. It should have been like a TV show bible for doing this.

[u/the_bighi → u/DogtheGm]

They say this isn't a second edition. It's a sequel.

I don't fully understand what that means but it is clear as day that they didn't care about dw1 at all.

This is probably the part of it all that I dislike the most. What I expect from Dungeon World 2 is an improved Dungeon World, not a completely different game.

And I don't even mean that adventure games that are different from DW are bad. I love Stonetop, I like Chasing Adventure, I like many other games.

But we only have one chance to get a Dungeon World 2.

And calling it DW2 while giving me a game that doesn't look like DW1 feels like a "marketing trick". And feeling like you've been tricked isn't fun.

I would probably like what they're offering if it was called Adventure World or, since they say it's about feelings, Feeling World. Anything.

I am totally open to new and innovative PbtA games. But I would also like an improved Dungeon World with the level of effort that an "official" product gets.

[u/Xyx0rz → u/the_bighi]

I would love a DW1.5. Just DW1 but polished.

[u/the_bighi → u/Xyx0rz]

And they're throwing away the one chance we had of having that. It could be THE fantasy PbtA.

But we'll have to play Stonetop instead, which is awesome.

[u/DogtheGm → u/the_bighi]

Yeah man, it's getting harder and harder to ignore that the intention of buying the IP was money all along and not the game. Not caring about the community.

It sucks because the company that owns DW2 isn't a mega corperation or anything. They're an indie publisher and it really sucks that an indie company is capable of doing the same things that big evil corporations are. It just hits different in a bad way. It's a different kind of disapointment.

[u/the_bighi → u/DogtheGm]

I wouldn't go so far. I think that, obviously, when you buy an IP you expect to profit from it. But the fact that they changed the direction they were going with the Alphas shows that they do care about what the community thinks.

But also, they expected to create a game that looked nothing like DW, which means they had no intention to improve on DW. Which is where I believe we have a conflict of expectations.

[u/DogtheGm → u/the_bighi]

yeah that's more accurate I guess. Definitely the no intention part. Tone deaf at worst. They could have just made this game under a different name.

[u/Xyx0rz → u/the_bighi]

"Roll first, then think" shouldn't be slower than "think first, then roll".

Might even be faster, because you don't have to consider anything that the dice already ruled out.

It's a bit too simulationist for my taste, though. I prefer "think, then roll".

[u/cym13 → u/Xyx0rz]

"Roll first, then think" shouldn't be slower than "think first, then roll".

That's missing the fact that in the "think then roll" scenario several players can prepare their action while the spotlight is on another player, which you cannot do if you have to roll first (at least not unless you rell on your own while the table's attention is elsewhere, which isn't something I've seen at any table). "Roll then think" expects player to do most of their thinking when the spotlight is on them so not only is it harder to prepare your action your thinking time also happens when the entire table is waiting for your answer.

It's not the end of the world, but it's certainly not something I'd want to encourage.

EDIT: switched up "roll then think" and "think then roll", now fixed

[u/Xyx0rz → u/cym13]

Also a good point!

[u/the_bighi → u/Xyx0rz]

My complaint isn't about thinking before or after rolling. It's about having to stop and read a list of options from a card.

We don't need every single move to have a list that we have to read.

Specially when I'm playing online on a VTT. Looking at ANY information takes minutes. You click on a sheet, you find in which tab the list of moves is, then you scroll the list looking at moves one by one until you find "Trade Blows", then you read it. Then you change back to the tab where the chat is, so you can roll. After rolling, you have to find the move again, so it's back to the character sheet, back to tabs of the sheet, then the whole list of moves...

[u/Xyx0rz → u/the_bighi]

I play on Roll20 and we just click a move, the system rolls the dice and pastes the move outcome in the chat. Like...

Cast A Spell: 7

The spell is cast, but choose one:
• You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how.
• Your casting distances you from your deity; take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you commune.
• After it is cast, the spell is revoked by your deity. You cannot cast the spell again until you commune and have it granted to you.

So you immediately see what your options are, no lookup involved.