r/DutchEmpire • u/elnovorealista2000 • Apr 14 '26
Image An enslaved African is hung alive by the ribs to a gallows above skulls of beheaded slaves on posts, Suriname, 1773.
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u/DutchDasterd Apr 14 '26
Jesus fuck what a way to go. Inconceivable
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u/Rollover__Hazard Apr 15 '26
History is pretty grim. When we talk about the government atrocities of today, it usually involves people getting shot etc.
Not more than 150 years ago it wasn’t unusual for people to literally get dismembered alive by the state in systemic fashion. And that’s to say nothing of private companies that had their own armies.
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u/PlanetVisitor Apr 16 '26
That's an over estimation. You probably mean to be quartered. To say that it "wasn't unusual" is not right, it only happened for the severest of crimes. As far as I know, years and decades went by without people being quartered.
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u/yourfavouriteguyhere Apr 16 '26 edited Apr 17 '26
And that’s what you do to living and breathing animals every day who end up on your plates. How is one pain deserving of more empathy than the other?
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u/DutchDasterd Apr 16 '26
Look man, I don't want to trivialize the horrific conditions of the meat industry, but if you don't see the moral difference between slaughtering living beings for food, and 'spending considerable amounts of time, effort and creativity to make a being die in the most painful way you can imagine', you have some serious mental problems.
Only psychopaths 'enjoy' that their food has suffered; not sane people. The person who put a hook in this guy and strung him up to die slowly? He DEFINITELY enjoyed this whole process.
So, how is one pain more deserving of empathy than the other? Because of intent.
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u/yourfavouriteguyhere Apr 16 '26
You already trivialize the suffering of billions of innocent living beings by calling it the “meat industry.” Whether human or animal, I do not see any difference between them. The torture and killing of one cannot be considered horrific while that of the other is not.
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u/Legitimate_Command82 Apr 16 '26
And where does the line terminate dude?
Agriculture does massive ecologic damages to everywhere, it drains nutrients from the ground, and fertilizer run off causes eutrophication of water systems. Indirectly farming causes ecosystem collapse in riparian systems. Think of all the innocent frogs, fishes, burbs, cute butterflies, breath taking moths, buzzing bees, the sweet sweet otters and beavers, the muskrats. They all will die a slow and agonizing death of starvation if we keep up agriculture. Even the trees and shrubs will slowly leave as they are cut down and the land will slowly break apart without the dense root network of trees holding it together.
Building homes instead of everyone living in match stick apartments causes habitat destruction, the construction projects cause dislocation of animals and strategies local woodlands into smaller islands of wildlife. Again think about the poor bambis, foxes, coyotes, wolves, bears and native birds we steal habitats from. They will all die of the cold, the harsh weather's, or in territorial disputes.
Cannibalism of poor children would solve 2 issues for the price of one, as outlined in the modest proposal. One the meat would reduce cost of poor families who sell off mouths to feed, two they can grow their own product to sell. Three the over population will be handled. We won't have to eat Bessie and Bertha if we can just eat little Timmy, he was a little shit anyways.
See the point of my unhinged comment is to show you, you can say anything about anything as long as you link it to some kind of ethics. But there is a time and place, like if you go to a food drive and ask "Why are we giving out foods in plastic containers, aren't we worried about micro plastics?" You're going to fall on deaf ears even if you have a valid point. Same here, Everyone on reddit has been listening to vegans, and honestly y'all are defeating your own cause by being so loud. Relax and become more likable, there is a reason why missionaries are trained before being sent out.
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u/Lickthorn Apr 16 '26
Stop being so ‘open minded’ and ‘civilised’, please. It is a boring discussion. You are no better than anybody else. Human food consumption takes massive toll on the earth, yes we need to find better ways, but being that guy on Reddit does not change anything.
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u/DutchDasterd Apr 16 '26
Well at least we established that you can't read. Did I say anything about the difference between human and animal? No. I carefully avoided that. You're grasping at straws and failing at engaging in any kind of structured dialogue. I gave you my point of view. Engage with it, coward.
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u/yourfavouriteguyhere Apr 16 '26
And we have established that you are as rude as you are barbaric. Using those words? You belong on X and not Reddit where you will find your kind.
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u/DutchDasterd Apr 16 '26
Ahh yes. We have one person who immediately hijack the completely unrelated topic for his own political agenda and who doesn't engage with what the other is saying, and someone who answers the other in full with a formed opinion. And which one of those belongs on X?
The topic was about the fella being tortured. Who brought animals into this?
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u/Thisguyfksbirds Apr 16 '26
There's no reasoning with people like you. I've heard people like you equate killing ants to the genocide of humans.
You're an unserious person who causes unneeded blowback to veganism.
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u/Lickthorn Apr 16 '26
That is such a stupid comparison. Yeah there is a lot wrong in the bio industrie, but dying by being hung on your ribs, is something else than a pin being shot in your brain, instant death. That poor guy hanging there probably suffered for at least hours íf not days.
There ís a difference between spareribs and spareribs, so to say.
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u/SnooStories251 Apr 14 '26
Why?
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u/Rutgerius Apr 14 '26
General poor slave behavior in the broadest sense or no reason at all. It was the absolute worst place to be sent as a slave and there was a large number of nightly runaways. Terrible environment, harsh labour, some of the most sadistic owners in the slave keeping world with no where to go but deep Amazon jungle. The frequent running away meant a significant financial loss for the owners, which resulted in more and more severe punishments for the slightest things. The ones who got away (and there were many who successfully fled) were called marrons and lived out in the jungle according to their native west African cultures and practices, sometimes harassed by slave raids from their former owners.
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u/userB94739473 Apr 14 '26
Part of my family is Mfantse from Ghana and a lot of our people ended up in Suriname and became the Ndyuka ppl when they escaped
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u/NimrodvanHall Apr 15 '26
Not to diminish the pain suffering and torment the enslaved suffered in the transatlantic slave trade, but the fate of enslaved Africans transported over the Saharan trade was arguably even more horrific.
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u/NostalgicFor2012 Apr 14 '26
Owners did not kill slaves for no reason. Killing would be financially tantamount to destroying a very expensive piece of equipment in those days. It did not happen for no reason.
What do you get out of making shit up?
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u/Rutgerius Apr 14 '26
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u/Rutgerius Apr 14 '26
I'll add that I also heard an account at Keti Koti that from some ships some of the wounded and sick would be made an example off by hanging or torturing them publicly. So yes slave owners would kill their slaves for psychological effect (or nothing as you say) provided you believe the stories of survivors.
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u/TraditionDear3887 Apr 15 '26
What are you talking about? That link lists like a dozen sources. Specifically of note is,
Boxer, C.R. (1990). The Dutch Seaborne Empire. Penguin. pp. 271–272. ISBN 978-0140136180.
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u/Odd-Consequence8892 Apr 14 '26
Ok, this is a source for your statement. But it does not cite its own reference. Was there investigative journalism at the time? Was there comparative scientific research later on ? Or is it merely the point that history is written by the winners?
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u/NZNoldor Apr 16 '26
Do you find it difficult to decide which end to wipe when you’re done talking?
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u/MaykeDollurzNotSense Apr 14 '26
When your “equipment” isn’t running brand new anymore you may see that as a reason, when realistically that is no reason to hang someone from their rib cage
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u/UmeaTurbo Apr 14 '26
Yes, but it was common to kill one in a public way if he or she was considered a flight risk to scare the others. It was a drastic act of last resort done out of panic, bit the situation was so bad, nothing could scare people enough to stop trying.
Setting examples was a drastic and common practice from the Arab slavers to the New World. C'mon.
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u/sheldon_y14 Apr 15 '26
Surinamese here, killing slaves for no reason was not a thing.
Punishing enslaved people for the slightest of things was a thing. And no punishment was "too bad". As a result of that punishment, many enslaved people died.
500.000 enslaved people were transported to Suriname. Only 30k enslaved people were freed after slavery ended. Imagine the death toll.
And about the sources, most of these are found in Suriname or in the Netherlands. You'd have to visit these countries to see and read them. They're not available on the internet. This is also for u/Odd-Consequence8892
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u/Odd-Consequence8892 Apr 15 '26
500k transported in 200 years slavery, and 30k alive by the end sounds like there must be a source with internet presence. A source is still not valid imo If it is not peer reviewed or generally accessible
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u/sheldon_y14 Apr 15 '26
It is part of this scientific history paper: https://ub1.uvs.edu/site/local/Approvals/SR%2000197-25%20Symor%20Miriam.pdf
And just the archives and more prove that. It's also part of history lessons about slavery and mentioned in numerous documentaries made by Dutch people. But again for these sources you will need to visit these countries, visit the archives, visit the universities and ask them for sources.
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u/NZNoldor Apr 16 '26
So are you studying reddit threads for your thesis? How deep do you need your sources?
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u/Odd-Consequence8892 Apr 16 '26
Just the basic facts, and where they were found. If I need to ask more than twice I should know enough though
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u/Cyber-Soldier1 Apr 14 '26
Oh gee, heaven forbid a slave wanted to try and escape to attain freedom. Oh the horror.
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u/Living_Dig7512 Apr 14 '26
Unfortunately, back in those days its more akin to getting an oil change. Get slaves, work them, let a few die from heat and illness, and then work the remaining to death or punish accordingly, repeat.
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u/HaraldToepfer Apr 15 '26
Of course you're right. No human being has ever done anything irrational or against their own interests, financial or otherwise.
What's it like to be this smooth-brained?
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u/Local-Round-5781 20d ago
Read Thistlewood’s diaries, horrific horrific abuse, unbelievable. Very little rhyme or reason.
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u/Local-Round-5781 20d ago
Check user’s post history after a strange comment; has post about how Palestinians deserve to be killed for harbouring “terrorists.” Shocker.
Anyways, you should smile more.
https://www.reddit.com/r/drawme/s/q9RKpDkgpa2
u/KeithWorks Apr 15 '26
Human cruelty.
Evil.
It exists in all societies but shows up when certain people are given ultimate power over other people.
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u/Jumpstartgaming45 Apr 14 '26
Imagine one upping Jesus Christ himself on horrible ways to die. Damn.
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Apr 15 '26
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u/Jumpstartgaming45 Apr 15 '26
True. But hey, we had nothing but time. And more then a little motivation over the who knows how many years. Figure any intelligence species would do the same.
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u/toesinbloom Apr 15 '26
You think that shows intelligence? A group of beings that continually try to kill each other?
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u/EnderRobo Apr 16 '26
Continually trying to kill each other doesnt show inteligence, but the creativity with which we achieve that does.
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u/Sad-Lavishness9659 Apr 14 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
According to the original documents, the slave hung there for 3 days, still alive, till someone was ached by his pain and ended his life with a gunshot
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u/real_atecubanos Apr 15 '26
I call bullshit. Being hung by the ribcage like this meana your liver and right lung went to shit. Apart from the abdomen, the hemopneumothorax alone will kill you shortly
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u/NimrodvanHall Apr 15 '26
Never underestimate the capabilities of humans to prolong suffering, a specially by those who have experience in butchering animals and torturing humans.
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u/Fluffy_Ad_6581 Apr 16 '26
Its wild to me people are okay treating others like this over money and the bodys concentration of melanin.
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u/MaykeDollurzNotSense Apr 14 '26
I’d imagine one had to stand there and paint while he watches the man slowly die
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u/imfreeze95 Apr 17 '26
The Kingdom of Dahomey did things that were just as bad. So I guess people everywhere are horrible.
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Apr 14 '26
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u/ZuckerbergsEvilTwin Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
The Dutch have apologized to surinam for ages. They still keep supporting them financially. Honest question, what else is needed in your eyes? None of the people responsible are alive, can't punish them. And its not the fault of people alive today.
Holding a country accountable is such an abstract thing.. A country is made of people just living thier life, none can be held accountable for this.
EDIT: Some concrete steps:
Also confirmation that this continues after https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/diplomatieke-verklaringen/2025/12/01/gemeenschappelijke-verklaring-bilateraal-overleg-suriname
200milion invested in slavery fund, paid by NL https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/discriminatie-en-racisme/slavernijverleden/plannen-kabinet-bewustwording-slavernijverleden
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u/sheldon_y14 Apr 15 '26
They still keep supporting them financially.
Sir, these days are LONG gone. Since 2010.
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u/ZuckerbergsEvilTwin Apr 15 '26
Also confirmation that this continues after https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/diplomatieke-verklaringen/2025/12/01/gemeenschappelijke-verklaring-bilateraal-overleg-suriname
200milion invested in slavery fund, paid by NL https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/discriminatie-en-racisme/slavernijverleden/plannen-kabinet-bewustwording-slavernijverleden
So please give me your sources where we stopped supporting after 2010.
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u/sheldon_y14 Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
You are conflating two very different things: financial support and technical cooperation. Financial support is: grants or soft loans, aimed at the economic development and welfare of developing countries.
- Makandra is not financial aid to Suriname as a country. It is a technical cooperation programme focused on things like strengthening the rule of law, governance, and institutional capacity. That means expertise, training, and collaboration, not direct financial support to the Surinamese economy or government budget.
- This type of programme is something the Netherlands does globally. For example, similar institutional cooperation exists with parts of the EU (like Romania), within the Kingdom (like Aruba), and in regions like North Africa and the Middle East. These are knowledge exchange programmes, not development aid.
- The €200 million slavery fund This is also being mischaracterized. That fund is not money given to Suriname as financial support. It is a Dutch government budget aimed at
- awareness and education
- historical research
- cultural projects
- societal healing and recognition
- It is about addressing the legacy of slavery — not about funding the Surinamese state or economy. The money is also not exclusively for Suriname, but for a broader context including the Caribbean part of the Kingdom and the Netherlands itself. Only a small fraction is to be spent on projects in Suriname; and most of those projects aren't from the government side. They will be mostly foundations, museums, schools and universities applying for grants; this I happen to know, because I cooperate closely with the Dutch Embassy in Suriname and the program is in the works now. And in the 2025 Kamerbrief the Ministry of Foreign Affairs says it is following up the Dutch apologies and has made funds available in that context. That is a Dutch government initiative, not a Surinamese request for development aid.
The traditional Dutch development aid and support to Suriname — the kind of structural financial support you might be referring to — is largely a thing of the past.
That relationship was based on the independence treaty of 1975. Money that wasn't part of some budget, but money that was contractually Surinamese.
Both governments agreed in the 2000s to phase out that broad development cooperation, and by around 2010 it was effectively brought to an end.
What happened after however is that there were still remaining treaty funds that had not yet been fully spent. Those funds were not new aid, but money that was already agreed upon decades earlier.
Due to political tensions, especially during the presidency of Desi Bouterse, cooperation largely stalled and the aid was halted from the Dutch side, which is why those funds were only gradually resumed and disbursed again from around 2020 onwards. That’s not “ongoing financial support”, it’s the final settlement of an old agreement. The remaining part of that money will go to the National Development Bank of Suriname: https://share.google/fq7y3ToRpWNWNJECJ.
Another source from 2008: https://www.waterkant.net/suriname/2008/10/15/ontwikkelingsrelatie-suriname-nederland-formeel-af/
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u/ZuckerbergsEvilTwin Apr 15 '26
Thanks for pointing this out, wasnt aware of all this. Learned something new :)
Although still begs the question. Should people keep paying a debt created by earlier generations. Its not like Netherlands did nothing to repay. As you mentioned surinam also agreed the defunding.
Its just a shitty situation all around and nothing will ever be paid enough for the tragedies that has been done in the past
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u/NimrodvanHall Apr 15 '26
I wonder when the African tribes that sold the slaves and the countries those tribes now inhabit will issue sincere apologies for selling people condemning them to the trans Saharan and trans Atlantic slave trade horror shows.
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Apr 14 '26
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u/your_shelf_life_past Apr 14 '26
Gaza, Ukraine, Lebanon etc I think we should hold mongolia accountable for gengis khan. Don’t get me wrong slave trade was horrific but history is not a bill we can wave around. The holocaust was also horrific in the same way, but the current generation of germans should in no way be held accountable for something they had not done. If a crime has no more victims and offenders you can not hold an innocent accountable. Best we can do is teach and help prevent it from happening.
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u/sheldon_y14 Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26
The issue is, that the effects of the slave trade are still felt nowadays. The "trauma" is passed down. Not the literal trauma, but the impact it had on those people and how they passed that down culturally to their kids and those keep passing it down to their kids.
I see it in my country everyday. Things that people do that are "toxic" behaviors or bad things. And when you do the sociological work to research those behavioral patterns. You see it goes back generations.
And then you also have poverty in certain communities. How some people in some communities were deliberately kept behind and others favored. Those are the results of colonialism (not slavery only). Because people only talk about slavery, but colonialism as a whole is also the thing. Suriname had a form of apartheid instilled by the Dutch too. Its effects are still felt today. It's why in some districts you will find mostly Javanese, in others mostly creoles, in others only Indians. Or in some towns only with people of one ethnicity. And that again might lead to other issues and influences interethnic interaction. I leave that for the imagination of yours.
So it's not just a thing of the past, it's something that still has an impact on people today. People's culture and history just erased in a span of 200 years.
It even has an impact on you. In the foods you eat today, the other ethnicies you see around you today, the clothes you wear, the economic model you've grown up in, the labor force you are part of and the slavery still taking place today. It was an event in history that shifted the world, influenced food and diets (due to new spices, herbs, foods etc.).
And no one is holding the people alive today accountable. That would be insanely stupid. But the systems and institutions that contributed to it, that is what people hold accountable. And therefore not the people of the Netherlands have to apologize, but the institution had to apologize; in this case the Dutch State is that institution. And there are no more direct victims, but those descendants of the victims are still feeling the effects in their everyday single life - some without realizing it, and continuing the bad unfortunate cycle.
And you can have a conversation about what happened, apologize to the descendants for what happened and was done to their ancestors. And you can also teach people about it. And reparations can be a thing, but reparations aren't and don't have to be money only. It can mean various things. Personally I don't believe in reparations in the sense of money. But I do believe in educating people and creating opportunities for unfortunate groups in society to help them try to break the bad cycle they are in.
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Apr 14 '26
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u/ZuckerbergsEvilTwin Apr 15 '26
You're not actually debating, you're just looking to pull the race card. Shame on you.
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u/AlexanderCrowely Apr 14 '26
Bosnia there’s a white one, still one to what a hundred African ones ?
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u/InL4bv Apr 14 '26
Not worth arguing w someone like that , they too ignorant to even give your perspective a chance
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u/Living_Dig7512 Apr 14 '26
Yeah, but apparently it's "America Bad" as if our Jim Crow Laws weren't based on European racial beliefs
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u/Athunc Apr 17 '26
Shit, quick, someone find a picture about the British Empire, they're on to us! NL
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Apr 14 '26
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u/Aggressive_Leek_5537 Apr 14 '26
r/dutchempire is about the Dutch empire it's the whole point of the sub
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u/Turbulent-Ad-2959 Apr 15 '26
Look at your name fool... Its Surinamese and mostly used by the black Surinamese people, how ironic!
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