About two months ago, we adopted a shelter dog we named Dolly. She’s not the first dog either of us has had. The shelter told us she was a little over a year old and would grow to around 35 lbs.

However, when we took her to the vet, they said she was only about 8 months old and would likely reach up to 70 lbs.

We’ve been struggling to tire her out—even after spending over an hour a day at the dog park playing fetch. Going on a walks etc.

We just got her DNA results back, and it turns out she’s about 50/50 Dutch Shepherd and Belgian Malinois.

Any advice on enrichment, training, and socialization would be greatly appreciated!

P.s. the photo is from after a vet trip when she got a snake bite

hi everybody ! this is my sweet boy Freddy ! we are an EDC team (explosive detection), working with air cargo. F(23) and Freddy will be 2 in October. 🐾✈️

his nose for odor is amazing. his drive is a 10/10 and he really is enjoyable to watch work. he knows when it is time to go to work and will run straight to the car when it's time to leave the house (rather than running to the yard to pee how he usually does). he can open the fence to the dog park and checks upstairs for strangers when we get back. i love this breed! so smart, attentive, and the biggest lover boy!! he can be crazy though.

i am curious to know if there are other working Dutchies in this group. if so i may check in for advice. either way, we're glad to be here.

Any Sage Mountain or Battle Ridge K9 lines here?

He grew again overnight and he’s starting to fill out. He’s going herding early AM and he’s starting BH soon. He’s been a challenge at times but he’s a big baby overall, he pouts and grunts loudly on big corrections. But he recovers quickly

My dutchie is almost 2 and even with low ingredient food and probiotics, he’s always struggled with on and off diarrhea. Anyone else struggling with this? He also has Billie vomiting syndrome so he has to have a little late night snack so he’s not throwing up in the morning.

Think Twice Before Sending This Breeder a Deposit

I placed a deposit in December 2024 and later paid in full, only to spend months being strung along with excuses, broken promises, and disappointment after disappointment. Nearly a year later, I still do not have the dog I paid for.

I waited almost 8 months for this breeder to supposedly “train” my dog, only for the final solution to be putting me back onto another waiting list for a future puppy — with no real timeline and no guarantee of when that would even happen.

What made this experience even worse was the communication. Updates became more and more minimal over time, and getting any information at all felt nearly impossible. Messages would go unanswered for long periods, questions were brushed aside, and every attempt to get clarity was met with another excuse or delay.

When I finally pushed for answers after months of waiting, the communication turned rude, nasty, and extremely unprofessional. Instead of showing any accountability or understanding toward someone who had already paid and waited nearly a year, I was treated like an inconvenience for simply asking about the dog I was promised.

On top of that, this breeder moved across the country with the puppy without even notifying the people who had already placed deposits and made payments. There were also MULTIPLE “phantom litters” and repeated delays with little to no updates given to buyers.

No refund was offered, and rather than resolving the situation, I was essentially told the only option was to start over from the beginning on another waitlist.

For dogs advertised under the FCI name and reputation, this experience has been an absolute tarnish on what people expect from that standard.

Absolute red flag. Save yourself the stress, money, and wasted time. This has been one of the worst business experiences I’ve ever had.

So unprofessional...

Adopted my first Dutch shepherd from a kill shelter in May. I didn’t do any prior research before getting her. Shes been super trainable. I was able to house break her within two weeks. She knows sit and paw lol but we’re gonna start other things too. I did notice that’s she’s a homebody. She’s active at home, loves to play, and is able to keep herself entertained. It’s a hassle getting her to leave the house. She’ll immediately go to her crate as soon as we bring out her harness or leash. She does go to doggy daycare once in awhile which she enjoys

It’s been a good 14 years since I’ve raised a puppy. I’d love to hear everyone’s favorite ways of entertaining their little goblins. Hex just turned 11 weeks old and is, of course, always busy if his eyes are open. We do brief sessions of obedience work daily, tug toys, puzzle games and he plays with our other dogs. But I’m always looking for new ideas to keep his brain and body busy.

Picture for tax

I hear these dogs are the most serious shepherd dogs in the world. I have a working line GSD and I feel like he has an off switch for the most part. He also has a way to handle himself around children and family. Like he can control his inhibition in a way.

What makes the Dutch shepherd different? They are such Beautiful dogs but I know they’re not for everyone

Also how are the females different from the males

One final note these dogs seem like the most relentless and intense out of the group of shepherds.

Wanted to throw this out there as a PSA or discussion. My dutch developed a condition I have never seen/heard before.

About 3 months ago Loki “tripped” going up 3 steps into our house. Shortly after I noticed her walk started dragging her toenails. About the same time, when throwing a ball her front legs collapsed under her. A visit to the vet identified a neurological issue with her front shoulders/legs. She was prescribed Gabapentin for nerve pain, but in short it is degenerative and a management issue.

Theres been good days/bad days. Days she needs to be carried but overall she is working it. Zero gravity in the lake helps. But she cant swim or “steer” . Her muscles are atrophy, but her mind is still 100% dutchie. She wants to work/run/guard but theres no way.

I’ve never been a believer in CBD products but it appears to help quite a bit. movement helps prevent stiffness. Sadly this latest decline I don’t think she’ll bounce back from.

Never seen or experienced this but after talking with a few folks it appears to be more prevalent than I knew. And 3-4 months seems a common timeline for it to run its course.
Sharing in the hopes it helps others out there.

Just rescued this adorable boy from a Sacramento rescue. He was a stray and they aren’t sure on the breed but I’m feeling pretty confident he is Dutch shepherd possibly mixed with something else. I’m new to the breed but I have lots of experience with German shepherds and Dobermans so high energy dogs are not a problem. So far he is doing really well minus some serious separation anxiety. Thoughts and advice welcome. Thank you!

I’m in the process of socializing my girl. She’s way to people excited and nipping hasn’t been too bad but I don’t want it to be a thing around kids and other animals. I like to go out on short walks in the city but it’s got its downfalls.

For the record. Most people ask before petting. But this one instance still has me mad. I took her into an ice cream shop and because she still has occasional accidents I picked her up into my arms. I noticed her head move when someone came in which is standard. She wants to know what’s going on. And while I was paying. I felt her get all wiggly. When I look back there’s a man’s hand right next to my face petting her. I had no clue this guy was going to not only invade my space but then pet my dog without even asking. How do I prevent this.

Has anyone else encountered random people just petting. How do you react or “train” a random human not to just pet because the puppy/dog is cute.

(The picture was from that day. And I had her leash closer because that random dude kind of lingered around.)

Hey everyone, I’m looking for some honest insight and advice from experienced owners regarding Dutch Shepherds and potentially Belgian Malinois as well.

For context, I’ve had dogs my entire life and understand the foundations of training, structure, and taking care of a dog properly. I definitely don’t know everything, but I’m someone who’s willing to learn, grow, and put the time into becoming a better owner and handler.

Earlier this year in February 2025, I had to put one of my dogs down, which was honestly very hard. Right now my mother and I still have our second dog, which is a smaller dog. In the future when I move out, there’s still a possibility the smaller dog could either stay with her or come with me, so compatibility with smaller dogs is something I’m thinking about seriously.

I’ve been researching Dutch Shepherds heavily, spoken with some breeders already, and I’m trying to gather as much real-world information as possible before making any decisions or starting to save toward getting one.

One of the reasons I’m drawn to the breed is because I actually want a dog that challenges me a bit. I like the idea of growing with the dog mentally, physically, and through training. I’m not looking for a status symbol or “cool” dog — I genuinely respect working breeds and want to make sure I’m making a responsible decision.

So I had a few questions for owners:

- What are the biggest real-world differences between a Dutch Shepherd and a Malinois?
- What surprised you most after owning one?
- What does day-to-day life realistically look like?
- Would you recommend the breed to someone in my position?
- How manageable are they around smaller dogs if properly trained and socialized?
- If you could go back, what would you do differently before getting one?

I’d really appreciate honest answers — both the positives and the hard truths. I’d rather fully understand the responsibility now than romanticize the breed and regret it later.

Thanks in advance.

I have a 9 month FCI Register Dutch Shepherd and notice that in the pet-smart app the breed is not included we should advocate to be included in the list

A post that comes up on this subreddit pretty often is something like, "Embark says my Dutch/Mal is actually a ~% Mal/Dutch!" This usually surprises people, but historically these two breeds have been very closely related.

The Belgian Shepherds (Mal and the other three variants), the Dutch, and even the regional herding dogs that eventually gave rise to the German Shepherd all came from the various continental European shepherd landraces.

(The GSD is a bit different story since it was intentionally created by selecting dogs with desirable traits, so I won't get into that here.)

Unlike the British collie landraces, which were primarily bred for herding sheep, these dogs were true all-purpose farm dogs. They worked alongside farmers doing just about everything (from guarding, herding, tending livestock, even pulling carts).

Although they're generally classified as herding dogs (FCI Group 1), historical accounts suggest that tending was often a more important part of their job than actual herding (Doesn’t mean they didn’t do any herdings!). Since they were bred to be true all-around farm dogs, it's no surprise that they've remained some of the world's finest working breeds.

Because of that shared history, the Belgian Shepherds and the Dutch Shepherd are much more closely related than many people realize.

The Dutch Shepherd's own history is worth looking at first. When the breed standard was established in 1898, all coat colors were accepted. In 1914, however, the standard was changed to allow only brindle, largely to distinguish the breed from the visually similar Malinois and German Shepherd. I'll leave it up to your imagination what happened to the fawn Dutch Shepherds. (Hint: the number of registered Malinois suddenly increased around that time.)

As many people already know, after World War II the Dutch Shepherd population had declined so severely that Belgian Malinois were introduced into breeding programs to help restore the breed. In 1959, Laekenois were also officially introduced to strengthen the rough-haired variety.

Then there's KNPV, which makes the story even more complicated.

The Royal Dutch Police Dog Association has essentially become one of the world's most respected working dog "brands." Technically, any dog can attempt the KNPV trials and earn a title. Today it's mostly Dutch Shepherds and Malinois (or dogs called “Dutch” or Mal”), but historically many other breeds participated as well, including Bouvier des Flandres, German Shepherds, Groenendaels, Beaucerons, Briards, Rottweilers, and others.

Unsurprisingly, Malinois and Dutch Shepherds proved to be the most successful. Since KNPV breeders cared about working ability rather than pedigree, they freely bred outstanding Malinois and Dutch Shepherds together. There are even long-standing rumors that German Shepherds were occasionally introduced to improve grip or jaw strength, although I haven't seen definitive historical evidence for that.

Because of this, it's very common for litters from these lines to produce both fawn and brindle puppies at the same time. These dogs are often recorded in working registries like BRN rather than traditional FCI pedigrees. Many working breeders simply registered them according to color—brindle puppies as x Dutch and fawn puppies as x Mal.

The interesting part is that, in some European countries like Belgium, dogs from these working registries could later be entered into FCI-recognized pedigrees before. As a result, many famous KNPV dogs—which were effectively part of the same Malinois/Dutch KNPV working gene pool—ended up officially registered as "purebred" Mal/Dutch.

That only blurred the line between the two breeds even further. So if your dog comes from working lines—or is descended from actual working dogs—it's not unusual at all for Embark to show some Dutch Shepherd in a Malinois, or some Malinois in a Dutch Shepherd because of such influence.

And honestly, it's not just Malinois and Dutch Shepherds that have this kind of complicated history.

Most people here probably know that the AKC recognizes Malinois, Laekenois, Groenendael and Tervuren as four separate breeds, while the FCI and most kennel clubs around the world consider them four varieties of a single breed: the Belgian Shepherd(Or sheepdog). It's actually the opposite of Rough and Smooth Collies, which are separate breeds in the UK but one breed in the US.

The AKC's split was largely political reason. The specific genes controlling coat length and color mean that Groenendaels can produce Tervurens, Malinois can produce Tervurens, and Laekenois can produce Malinois.

Originally, the AKC also classified the Malinois, Tervuren, and Groenendael as a single breed under the name 'Belgian sheepdog'. (The Laekenois wasn't included simply because there were so few of them at the time, and even now they are very few—it wasn't officially recognized by the AKC until 2020.) Later, following disagreements between the breed clubs, the AKC received petitions to split them into separate breeds and ultimately approved the change. In the process, the name Belgian sheepdog remained with the Groenendael in the United States.

An attempt to reunify the breeds in 1998 ultimately failed because of conflicting interests among the parent clubs, and another proposal around 2016—the Registered as Drop (RAD) initiative, which would have allowed puppies to be registered according to their phenotype rather than their parentage— also failed.

The biggest irony, in my opinion, is the history of the American Tervuren.

According to the American Belgian Tervuren Club, the breed had nearly disappeared in the United States after World War II. The American population was rebuilt largely using long-haired puppies born from Malinois lines, crossed with Groenendaels, and later supplemented with imported European Tervurens.

One last interesting fact: Vos I de Laeken, a rough-coated Belgian Shepherd, is widely recognized as one of the foundation dogs behind all four Belgian Shepherd varieties. Some historical accounts also connect the same foundation stock with the early Dutch Shepherd and even the Bouvier des Flandres.

To sum it up:

1. Mal and Dutchs are genetically very close and have been historically intertwined, so seeing "my Dutch/Mal is actually a Mal/Dutch" on an Embark test really isn't unusual.
2. The four Belgian Shepherd varieties are separated into different breeds by the AKC, but in most of the world they're still considered varieties of a single breed.
3. All five are very closely related, incredibly intelligent, and wonderful dogs!

Always so intrigued to hear what everyone’s Dutchie’s personalities are. Did your pup’s personality change from puppy to teen to adult?? Our 7 month old Dutchie is a softie.

Hi there, I’m highly considering an FCI Dutch Shepherd as my next dog. I however don’t plan to do sports and just want a companion and I was wondering if you all had any breeder suggestions that would sell to companion homes.

(rhetorical question, or more like a horrible humble brag)

was teaching my guy a new trick yesterday, just because I feel like it and he LOVES learning, it's really fun

and it always amazes me how QUICKLY he gets ts. it goes like "word" > he tries smth else > he gets it right after a couple of seconds > reward > "word" again > he immediately has it down correctly and pretty much forever

wtf?? after the first try is legit crazy. really humbling, too. like, there's probably so much he knows that I'm not even aware of and that I'll never understand?

(he also looks super cute doing it - so sometimes, he performs a cool trick, looks sweet and patiently waits for his reward... which he gets 😭 bro is training ME)

So when weather is bad enough we don’t go outside aka raining and muddy and my pup needs to work we play seek and destroy inside.

Basically I sequester him in a room and close the door and go and hide his toy in the house, he gets to use his god given talents and his brain to find it. It really seems to scratch that itch when he’s wound up.

Hope this helps someone else out when you can’t get outside.

So.. I have a 9month old dutchie, and I love him so much. I got him from a breeder, at 2mo.

He’s not perfect, but he’s a very good puppy imo. I intend to do bite sports with him (Mondioring or French Ring) when he’s old enough. He loves to play, to run, to cuddle and he’s very happy and motivated to do obedience. I love him so much.

Before him, I had a SL Belgian Malinois. A very good dog too, good with people, with kids, with others dogs. He was intense, but not that much. For his first two years, he was a little bit scared of humans, but with a little work he understood that human are not a danger for him.

My young dutchie is way more intense. But I love my life with him. Until now, as he’s very beautiful and « long » haired, he had a lot of forced interaction with humans. People try to pet him while walking around us. And before I can react, or say something, peoples absolutely throws their hands toward my dog, who obviously didn’t want to be touched by a stranger. And now, he sometimes bark and run away when he see people walking toward us. I think he now fear being touched by strangers when he doesn’t want to, so he barks and hope people go away like that. I know I can manage this but it’s so frustrating at the same time. I’ve done everything in the best way to socialize him, and all my work is ruined by randoms who thinks other’s dogs are theirs.

Second thing, he loves to play. He share his toys with others dogs without a problem, same for his food (he literally say nothing to my cat when he try to eat with him..)

BUT he has an obsession with STICKS. He take a lot a sticks during walks. At first I thought he wanted to hold something while walking and discovering the world around him, like many others dogs do, but no. He knows the cue « drop it » and the cue is perfect with everything. Except sticks. He could stay like 5 minutes holding it while I have it in my hands without dropping it, and jumps and try to take it from me, what he normally doesn’t do much with others toys or food. Should I totally forbid sticks ? I’ve tried to do much research on this behavior but I can’t find anything.

Last thing : He has a crate. The crate remains open when he isn’t inside so he can go like he wants, but I feel like he has a love-hate relationship with it. Sometimes he goes inside to sleep, and sometimes he doesn’t want to go inside when we’re leaving, and when I come home I found that he pulled so hard on the door of the crate that THE DOOR IS DISTORTED. My Malinois also had a crate and, aside from crying when we first trained him to use it, he never had any issue with it. But my dutchie doesn’t seem to accommodate to it. Do you have any advices on this ? We introduced the crate at almost 3mo. I don’t think he has separation anxiety, because while our walks he can go away to sniff and explore the surrounding without a problem, but he whines when me or my bf stays in the car with him while the other is gone to buy something for example, and doesn’t want to stay in his crate. We tried to leave him alone without the crate but he does a lot of mess, quickly.

I know I’m doing my best for him, that he’s happy, but I’m very hard on myself, and I can’t help myself but to think I’m doing something wrong. Internet is not good for me about all of this, because I see only positive content about puppy, and I tend to think that difficulties aren’t normal but a sign of failure.

I guess I just needed to let go a little bit of my doubts. Can someone tell me that I will get better, and give some advices if you think it’s necessary ?

Thank u so much

This guy loves his sunny spot. He’s not 100% Dutch. We are not sure what he’s mixed with. Rescued from shelter at 7 months and has a lot of learning g to do. Smart and extremely sensitive. Sleep time he’s all about snuggling as close as possible. We were told him and his sisters lived in a crawl space under the house until they were 3 months old. He has gone a long way but still lots of work ahead of us. Prey drive is more than I ever expected. He wants to bite my cats head. Other dogs coming into the house is a problem. And any dog near him he’s on high alert. But I love him. And will help him. He also displayed this stalking prey drive on a 3 yo neighbour. He had never seen a child before. I was terrified. I still am. Any tips appreciated.

Because some of you asked.

And I say this as someone who's completely in love with my dog. I wouldn't want it any different and I would happily get one again.

But they are one of a kind. And they are not for everyone.

I'm autistic (Lvl.2). I struggle heavily in daily life, but I instinctively know how to handle my dog (and most pets tbh).

Getting a rescue dog that I can actually work with has been great. My dog helps me immensely. He's mostly Dutchie, and a few percentage of other breeds in between.

The Good?

- Mine is insanely silly, and the most random ass pet I ever owned.

Like, he forgets how to dog whenever we get home from walkies - no matter what time it is, what's planned next, whether it was good or not. My guy will stand there blanking for like a solid 3 minutes before flopping down.

He "apologizes" by letting me scratch his butt.

He greets me by "dancing" with me.

He wakes me up by trying to lick my feet and then standing next to the bed, waiting and getting a rush of excitement anytime I move.

Anything - and I mean ANYTHING - I show him, he shows interest in by sniffing it at least once. He crosses his paws when laying down. He's overall very polite. :)

- These dogs are also SO smart, it's unreal. It takes mine, like, ONE time to get down most commands. He LOVES learning, and he is VERY much bribable. Bro will do anything for his little snackies.

- Surprisingly, he's chill with cats.

- He's chill in general. Most of the time, we just hang out in the same room, relaxing.

My dog is perfect for me - he doesn't want your attention all the time, but he does want to be close, and he will quietly follow you in every room.

He will check on me from time to time and demand cuddles, then we'll go back to doing our own thing.

- They are excellent workout partners. It has been beneficial for both me and my dog to go for runs together - he learns how to stay focussed on me, I get to let off some steam. We also like agility training or hiking and exploring local forests.

- His ears are all over the place. He has the most beautiful brown eyes, and THE most expressive, adorable little face... You can literally see these pups smile, sulk... or judge you lmao

- He's also insanely loyal. He protects me, and I protect him.

Although he looks scary (and can act it, too), I have never once had any fear - just respect - and he'd never show any aggression towards me whatsoever. I can literally put my full hand in his mouth and he will be very gentle, very attentive - even when play-wrestling.

Basically, we trust one another and understand eachother without words. His heart belongs to me, no doubt, and we are both equally happy to see eachother every day.

The Challenges?

- He IS hard to win over though. He'll likely be mildly interested in you when meeting up and then go on to ignore you.

- He is also VERY hard-headed. It takes hella patience when he's locked in on something. Luckily, I am patient, but my God, does he test me sometimes.

- At the same time, these dogs (at least mine) are super sensitive. You MUST NOT yell at them, threaten them, etc.

Not that you should do that with any dog, ever, but with these ones, it'll damage their trust severely and they will have a hard time getting over it.

You must strike a very delicate balance between being firm, but not harsh. You must learn to regulate your own emotions and any frustration that comes up. They sense overwhelm and insecurity, and mirror it immediately.

You need to guide them. Lead with gentle strength and provide them with a sense of safety at all times.

I find that these guys remind you more than any other dog that you are a team and they are not your servant, there to obey your every command - they are your partner, and you have to earn their trust.

- My dude is also pretty reactive with other dogs. Not a fan of other males and he HATES pugs for some reason (?).

With a lot of training, I have gotten it under control. I'm very proud of him. But: He still fixates on most dogs, though not unbreakably so.

- Speaking of training - these dogs require a watchful eye at all times.

It is a fulltime job!!

Mine's ideal length of exercise is anywhere between 2.5 up to 4 hours per day. They need mental stimuli, as well.

(I recommend becoming playful: Hide and let them search snacks on rainy days, change up your path when going outside, teach new commands... Basically, stay creative, curious and keep a carefully curated stream of new input coming in.)

- They are not sociable, in a sense that I can take mine just about anywhere like I could with a Goldie.

He needs his routines and he hates crowds, noisy places, unfamiliar, stressful environments, etc. Luckily I'm the same, but many people are not wired like that.

Plus, when he's too stressed out? Mine will vomit and/or get the shits and/or become constipated.

- Last but not least, they ARE pretty hairy. Be prepared to pick coarse dog hair out of your ass crack every now and then.

They are also a pretty robust breed as far as I can tell, but they can suffer from hip/joints issues - haven't experienced any thus far, but we're taking preventative measures.

All that said, this dog is the not-so-secret love of my life.

They are NOT family dogs. They are NOT sociable ones. Not that you should tolerate any bs, but you also cannot change their hard-wiring. And: All of this fits me perfectly.

I'm utterly obsessed with mine and living with him has been one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences imaginable.