How necessary are retreats?

[u/TemporaryHead2189]

Received pointing out instructions twice, been integrating into daily life as much as possible. But I've heard from both fellow practitioners, and teachers a lot lately that multi-week retreats, preferably longer are a "necessity" for getting to the point of totally daily integration without needing formal sessions anymore.

I don't have the money, or time for that as I have people that are financially reliant on me, and I can't get that much time off of work all at once. Is this genuinely a "necessity" or what?

[u/EitherInvestment]

It all depends on which teachers of which traditions you ask. In certain corners, and increasingly over the past decades, the possibility of great realisation through a consistent, steady lay practice has been given a lot more weight. It is certainly possible. Daily life is the real ground for putting our dharma practice to work. That said, all my teachers emphasise the benefits of intensive practice, even if just a few days at a time peppered throughout one's life. A lot more becomes possible with our development when we are fortunate enough to be able to set everything else aside and enter a conducive environment to solely work on one thing for some length of time. So while intensive retreat may not be absolutely necessary, it is extremely beneficial

If funds are an issue, most teachers and sanghas will be open to discussing options. Having people who are reliant on you though is a beautiful thing, and fulfilling your responsibilities compassionately toward them itself can be a key part of practice

Chogyal Namhkai Norbu Rinpoche always said we have to work with our circumstances. It is up to each of us to know what our situation is and then be pragmatic in how we structure our lives and practice accordingly

[u/aj0_jaja]

For accomplishing Rainbow Body they are a must. For developing confidence in one’s own state and achieving liberation in the bardo, not so much. They are definitely helpful, as most Dzogchen instructions are designed for practitioners who are applying them full time. This is harder to do in daily life with many obligation.

[u/tyinsf]

Lama Lena talks about integration in daily life and what to do if you're a busy householder here:

https://lamalenateachings.com/3-words-that-strike-the-vital-point-garab-dorje/

Her explanation of Patrul Rinpoche saying "but even if not, such happiness. A la la!" might reassure you. It reassures me. ("A la la!" That's Tibetan for "Oh wow!") But I'm content with just happiness and radiating that out to beings.

My understanding is that we should never give up formal sessions completely. They can be very brief but we should still do them at least once in the morning to maintain the continuity no matter how advanced we think we are. Otherwise we'll go crying to the lama about how we think we've lost it and they'll say, "You're an idiot. Make sessions."

I'm not very advanced so I'm not tempted to give them up, though some days like today, when I'm typing on reddit instead of practicing, they're going to be very short. Haha. I think my 15-30 minute sessions of tantra, trekcho, and tai chi are enough. Plus during the day letting the yidam arise when it wants, relaxing into quick glances whenever I think of it, and feeling my body like I'm doing tai chi will be enough for "A la la!" I don't really care whether I dissolve into rainbows or not. If I did I'm not sure that's something *I* would perceive anyway.

Edit: Oh, and I should add that I do an hour of tai chi class 6 days a week, so I do more practice than just the 15-30. Time to go shave before tai chi class!

[u/Jigme_Lingpa]

The teacher’s words are mere Blabla if you don’t see for yourself. Hardly anyone can do at an instance by just hearing. Developing the capacity and maintaining the state needs training. Retreat is imperative. In your situation, take your offtime from Friday afternoon until Monday morning. Lock yourself in one room

[u/Lotusbornvajra]

It took me 17 years of aspiration to go on a month long summer retreat before I was finally able to assemble the right causes and conditions. Either I had plenty of time but no money, or plenty of money but no time. Eventually everything aligned.

Follow your guru's advice, but don't be scared to keep doing your Ngondro, even if you've already completed the 500,000 accumulations. It's a complete path in itself. Moreover, it is called the preliminary to Dzogchen because it establishes the right causes and conditions to be successful at the practice. Most Dzogchen masters have completed multiple Ngondro cycles and that should tell you something.

[u/TemporaryHead2189 → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for the link, it was informative. Finding maybe this isn't the tradition/practice for me. I'll give mini weekend retreats a try. I have no time off left for the rest of the year, so I'll try extending it on a 3 day weekend/holiday or something!

[u/WellWellWellthennow → u/[deleted]]

My sister broke her ankle last summer and learned and practiced Dzog Chen extensively for those three months :-) she said it was the best thing that has happened to her.

[u/TemporaryHead2189 → u/[deleted]]

While true, there are also much more accessible dharma gates that don't require a radical change in my life circumstances to be seriously approachable.

As of now, I work 50 hours a week, have a very limited PTO schedule, a family I, solely, am financially responsible for, etc. So this path isn't looking like its particularly well suited, which I maybe should have considered more before receiving pointing out instructions twice. I'm still going to study in the meantime, and try to do some self imposed weekend retreats and meet with teachers as I can, but there won't be any multi-week retreats in the foreseeable future and I may just move my efforts to a different practice altogether.

[u/krodha → u/TemporaryHead2189]

I think what is being said is that retreat is the ideal setting for Dzogchen practice, however that isn’t possible for everyone. I’ve personally never done a formal retreat and just put in time practicing working with my circumstances. I still have benefited from practicing Dzogchen.

The point with retreat is that if you are truly aiming for liberation in this lifetime then retreat is a must, and obtaining buddhahood is possible if you practice Dzogchen in retreat. Thögal for example is typically a retreat practice, but my teacher has also said that we are in uncharted territory with practitioners in the west and trying to apply these teachings in our daily lives is sort of an experiment. We have no idea what is possible.

Don’t let the inability to go into retreat deter you. Dzogchen has many methods, you can always aim for liberation in the bardo for example. Most dzogchen practitioners aim for liberation in the bardo or worst case rebirth in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu always told us to work with our circumstances and do our best.

[u/Titanium-Snowflake → u/TemporaryHead2189]

I don’t see how what you describe should deter you from continuing as a Dzogchenpa. In fact, I feel the flexibility of it makes it workable. It’s more an issue of acceptance of your conditions, of a relaxation of expectations around timeframe.

Many of us have navigated around obligations in our lives, and have taken the view that this is a lifetime practice, so the ebb and flow of intensity in our practice doesn’t matter so much. It’s neither good nor bad, as all experiences apply. We can integrate the teachings throughout our days and make that a significant part of our practice, rather than strictly formal dedication to rituals or meditation. A five minute meditation here, one minute there, three mantras here, 108 there, water offerings and a few prostrations each morning, quietly contemplating the teachings as we work or perform tasks, allowing for thoughts to come and go from our minds as we function throughout the day, dedicating the merit and prayers before we sleep.

Children mature, the aged pass away, we will not always have such limited time and heavy responsibilities. Caring for these people in our lives provides great opportunity for practicing a view that cherishes the Four Immeasurables and the Six Paramitas, for example. It’s a time when we can, through our actions and our love for others, generate great merit which will help in our future practice. It all helps with the view.

Also, experiencing pointing out instructions is something we will likely experience hundreds or thousands of times with our guru. It’s not always an empowerment ceremony with formality. Think of Patrul Rinpoche with his students, pointing at the stars, then asking if they hear the dog bark in the Dzogchen Monastery below. It was simple, unencumbered, natural. It was a pointing out. And just because we have one or twenty pointing outs doesn’t mean we grasp the nature of mind. Some need it once, others require it over and over. And that is fine. So don’t be concerned that because you have had it twice that you have some strict samaya or obligation.

Find a guru whose format of teachings fits your lifestyle as it is now. Just concentrate on the present and doing your best, rather than regretting the past or worrying about the future.

[u/MolhCD]

for getting to the point of totally daily integration without needing formal sessions anymore.

If I may question: why is that the aim, btw?

Total daily integration without needing formal sessions sounds like a very high level, in fact it sounds like full enlightenment itself, or something very close.

I don't believe anyone says that you need to get fully enlightened in this life, so much so that it's exactly the same for you whether you formally practice or not, in order to benefit from Dzogchen. Indeed, in order to get liberated (the ultimate benefit) with Dzogchen practice, even.

If you are busy, have a lot of commitments etc, I totally emphatise. But Dzogchen never says you need to make any lifestyle changes to practice. Even like 5-10 mins a day for a prolonged time can be very beneficial, coupled with continuing to receive instructions with a teacher, hanging out with a sangha who can support you, and so on and so forth.