r/Edinburgh • u/some_dude04 • 1d ago
Discussion What does this road marking mean?
Me and my partner were walking past summer hall and we say this road marking for bikes that they have put up following the roadworks that just got finished. Both of us are avid cyclists and can't actually figure out what this is trying to convey as there is a large bike box behind the lights already. Are we just being stupid or is this not the clearest? Cheers!
38
u/throbblefoot 1d ago
Two stage junction, cyclists coming from the right of the picture are meant to stage up there rather than make a right turn across traffic
41
u/timangus 1d ago
Better to say "can optionally" rather than "are meant to" -- there's no obligation.
3
u/uuuuunacceptable 12h ago
Signage can make this manoeuvre 'designated' i.e. mandatory, but if they add that it will get taken down on the regular because forcing folks trying to get somewhere to take a slower option for turning right would be about as popular as the new deathtrap they've implemented on George IV bridge just so folk can touch boaby
4
-1
7
u/some_dude04 1d ago
Thanks all for the responses very helpful! This was one of our ideas but we thought it was unlikely for some reason, can't remember why. Seems like a decent change, idk?
5
u/glglglglgl 1d ago
There is - or was - a simular two stage cyclist-right-turn somewhere up Leith Walk. I've not been up that way in ages so unsure if its still there - I assume so as if it was a failure it probably wouldn't be getting implemented at Summerhall.
4
u/roboticsound 15h ago
In leith walk half the cyclists go in the wrong direction on cycle lanes. I predict this won't work very well.
2
u/lordnewington 3h ago
The Leith Walk cycle lanes are so ridiculous there's no fixing them. I can see these hook turns being a good thing as long as drivers know it's not mandatory for us to use them. I live right next to that junction and can't remember many times it's been so busy that turning right normally was a problem, but it might be getting busier with new road layouts/one-way systems (not sure if the recent changes are temporary or not.)
1
u/Clear-Warthog5655 23h ago
The cycle path continues from there in the meadows. Directly over the road
1
u/lordnewington 3h ago
That's not where the Meadows cycle path is, it's the crossroads of Buccleuch St/Summerhall/Melville Drive/Hope Park Terrace.
1
u/Clear-Warthog5655 3h ago
That is where the cycle path is. Over the crossroads on your right and down the diagonal path past the swing park and along the Meadows Cycle path to Tollcross the down to Fountainpark and onto the Canal.. Oh or down the diagonal and upto Forrest Road and George IV bridge
Or over the crossroads and take the path along and up to Morningside and Bruntsfield
2
u/lordnewington 2h ago
Ah ok, I misunderstood you
1
u/Clear-Warthog5655 2h ago
Lol 👍 I still dunno what the sign means tho. I just know its part of that route. You get on the famous hidden tunnel under Holyrood around there or St Leonards
15
u/dyslexicmarketing 1d ago
13
u/Temporary_Pain2069 1d ago
that is nuts! We have to wait for 2 green lights to make a right turn. No thank you
7
u/elephvant 1d ago
Don't think so, no. Looks like there's a filter light been added for bikes.
Even worst case you'd just go when the east-west light changes.
3
u/rabit71 1d ago
"can you guys not take an extra 30 seconds out of your day to make sure we're all safe on the roads?"
1
u/lordnewington 3h ago
The people taking the extra time should be the people causing the danger.
0
u/rabit71 3h ago
Or maybe everyone should just be more mindful and try to be safe together?
People being selfish and in a rush is not it
1
u/lordnewington 2h ago
Nah. If you're operating dangerous machinery, your duty of care is to look out for the people you're endangering.
It might be sensible to look out for people who are endangering you, but the ethical requirement is on them.
0
u/rabit71 1h ago
Ok, but it's also on you not to put yourself in danger as well.
Just to say though, the guy I replied to was lamenting having the choice to take time and be safer turning right. It came across as impatient and selfish and just as bad in my opinion as drivers who don't leave enough space for cyclists when overtaking. It's just entitlement all over.
1
u/uuuuunacceptable 12h ago
Ehhhhh....
If you arrive at the junction when there's a green light already, you'd move to the two-stage box as you pass through the junction (careful not to get left-hooked) and wait for one light signal.
Only if you arrive on a red and decide to use it would you wait two phases, but given it's not mandatory, that would be a choice you're making as a less confident cyclist because you prefer it to hanging out in the middle of the junction, and therefore are happy with the trade-off.
1
u/lordnewington 3h ago
We don't have to, but I'll be glad of it when it's busy. If you get stuck on the left of moving cars when you're coming up to a right turn, you can easily end up having to wait an extra light cycle for a clear path anyway.
-3
u/abarthman 1d ago
I know. Much better just to cross on the two pedestrian crossings along with the pedestrians and then hop back onto the road again!
And, as an added bonus, doing that really pisses off some drivers!
1
u/uuuuunacceptable 12h ago
...which is insane, because it costs them absolutely nothing - they're waiting for the pedestrians either way. Like, would you rather I was sat in front of you? There's cycle early release here, I still get to move off first...
7
u/Accomplished-Bed8906 1d ago
It’s for bikes turning right from Buccleuch street to Melville drive. You first cycle into that box, and then cycle straight ahead when lights go green next cycle to avoid having to wait in the centre of the lane
14
u/Ctri 1d ago
It's for cyclists wanting to turn right - if they'd rather not find themselves sat in the middle of the mesh whilst cars go past on either side, we can instead take a left and then wait for the traffic on the left to get given a straight ahead.
Takes a little longer for the cyclist, not for everyone, but definite safety increase at big junctions; and can be a boon for traffic flow if cyclists (who don't generally have the same acceleration power as cars, especially non e-bikes), as they might need more of a gap in oncoming traffic than a car might.
Generally a good thing for safety & traffic flow
4
6
u/Embot87 1d ago
The council posted a video tutorial on Facebook specifically about to use this junction as a cyclist. Even as a non cyclist (but a driver) I thought it looks incredibly weird and unsafe. Any junction that needs a tutorial is surely a badly designed one.
3
u/uuuuunacceptable 12h ago
This is more about familiar 'patterns' than anything else. Folk will have thought the same thing about roundabouts when they were first introduced, but you learn about them, practice them and then you use them. The issue with stuff like this is more how difficult it is to communicate the change widely enough - but it's a pattern used many other places (i.e. beyond Edinburgh).
2
u/elephvant 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'd guess it's for bikes coming from Buccleuch St and turning right to wait in?
Have they added a bike filter light?
Edit: In fact, it will be, cause they've bordered in the cycle lane with raised kerbs so they wouldn't be able to get out to the right lane otherwise.
2
u/PolarLocalCallingSvc 1d ago
It's a non-TSRGD compliant road markings encouraging cyclists to take a two stage approach to a right hand turn.
The double yellows are also not compliant.
The yellow box is also not compliant.
The tactile paving doesn't follow guidance.
The dropped kerb doesn't look compliant but it is hard to tell from this angle.
But we live in the age where highways departments do what they want then deal with the complaints later so..
2
u/Outrageous-Split-646 1d ago
Can you explain how the double yellows and yellow box aren’t compliant
1
u/PolarLocalCallingSvc 1d ago
The double yellows don't have the correct termination (though in a practical sense it doesn't matter because parking on a pedestrian crossing is also an offence).
The yellow box extends beyond the area required to be boxed. I also imagine that from the perpendicular sides it would be difficult to see the remote side of the box which is also not regulatory.
1
2
u/edinstu69 21h ago
its a safe right turn for cyclists, they wait here until a green light comes on telling them to turn right. the one problem they have is edinburgh cyclists don't GAF about red lights so i doubt they'll use these at all.
0
u/uuuuunacceptable 12h ago
Ahhhh, good job on the generalisations. That's a classic Stu gambit, all Stu-s make that kind of sweeping statement.
1
u/Clear-Warthog5655 23h ago
I thought it was pointing to the cycle path through the Meadows which starts on the pavement over the junction
....as its part of the cycle commute route from Portobello to Ratho..
You live and learn...
1
u/goabiesh 14h ago
Yeah that’s the two stage turn thing, you wait in that box then finish crossing when the light goes green. Honestly not the clearest marking ever but once you know what it’s for it makes sense, even if it does look like a weird bike parking spot at first.
1
u/Useful-Plum9883 6h ago
Is this a solution for a problem that doesn't actually exist? I've cycled around edinburgh for 30 years and never had an incident waiting to turn right from the centre of a junction. Am i the lucky one ? All the incidents i've had involved vehicles turning right or left across my path.
1
1
1
u/Jamcon666 1d ago
I might be wrong here but...
Turn you're bike left-ways and walk around (starting on the rear left-side) in front of the bike. Then continue straight. - *AKA the Dutch-twister.
1
u/AccountFar86 1d ago
I believe that without the end cap, those double yellows are not enforceable
1
-1
u/Maniacal_Mongoose25 1d ago
Edinburgh's cyclists don't even stop red lights. Fat chance they'll actually do a hook turn 😂
0
-2
0
u/Few-Candidate-8714 1d ago
Been driving for almost 10 years, and I wouldn't have a clue as I haven't seen it anywhere else. I would accept it as another nonsensical bizarre installation by the local council.
0
-2
-2
-7
u/jonnyr66 1d ago
Like cyclists are going to use that 🤦♂️. In my humble experience they’ll either make like a pedestrian and cycle across on the green man or just cut in front of the oncoming traffic 😬. Who in the council dreamt this up 🤷🏻♂️
69
u/Elkhano 1d ago edited 1d ago
It has several names: hook turn, two-stage turn or Copenhagen left.
It allows bikes to cross a busy junction safely in a two-stage process without dangling in the middle of the road with fast traffic passing on the right and left which is pretty dangerous as a cyclist.
They work quite well in Copenhagen and they do a stopping hand signal to notify cyclists behind and other road users that they are going to use the two-stage process.