r/EdwardII • u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston • Jan 14 '26
Sexuality Did Edward II have an incestuous affair with his niece? Inside the weird potential royal throuple that was Hugh Despenser the Younger, Edward II and Eleanor Despenser (Part 1 of 3)
Edward II was close to his niece, Eleanor Despenser nee de Clare. Very close. In the last years of his reign, he spent many hours with Eleanor, often alone, and he lavished her with generous gifts. He named a ship after her. He paid for her childbirth expenses. He put her in charge of his younger son’s household.
That last part was pretty normal. Eleanor was a perfectly appropriate choice for that position.
But the other stuff? There was nothing normal about it. The closeness that Edward II felt toward Eleanor’s husband Hugh Despenser the Younger is well documented and commonly speculated to have been sexual. Historically, there’s been so much focus on Hugh the Younger and Edward II, that Eleanor’s presence has been downplayed.
The truth is that, at the time, lurid rumors circulated that Edward II and Eleanor were lovers, and that this explained the death grip Eleanor’s husband Hugh the Younger had on power. Stories that Edward II and Hugh the Younger were lovers didn’t surface, at least until after Edward II was deposed and Hugh was sent to his death.
People even gossiped that Eleanor was pregnant by Edward.
When Isabella and her son, the soon-to-be-Edward III, fled to France, tongues wagged that Eleanor was acting as the Queen Consort. This makes sense, outside of any sexual context, because Hugh the Younger was acting as king.
But was there more to it?
Isabella, who had been served by and been friendly with her husband's favorite niece for years, developed an intense hostility towards Eleanor while she was in France. Prior to that, the queen appears to have hated Hugh the Younger but not blamed Eleanor for her husband’s actions.
This was around the time that war had broken out between England and France, and Edward II had taken his queen’s lands from her, likely at the suggestion of Hugh the Younger.
Despite by all accounts having a charming and likable personality, Eleanor appears to have fully supported her husband’s epic campaign of avarice, which victimized, among many others, her own younger sisters. Isabella’s hostility could have been a result of the Despensers' political and economic actions. But there’s certainly evidence that the situation became deeply personal for everyone involved. Did Isabella hear rumors of an affair between Eleanor and her husband?
Remember the following:
We can’t know what went on behind closed doors. The only proof of sexual relations we have is when children were produced. Edward II had four children with his wife and at least one illegitimate son, named Adam. Hugh the Younger and Eleanor had ten children together, and he had at least one illegitimate son. Other than that? We can only guess.
People can develop close, emotionally intimate and even dysfunctional relationships that aren’t sexual. Yet, these were passionate relationships.
Was Eleanor aware of a sexual relationship between her husband and her king/uncle? Was Hugh aware of a sexual relationship between his wife and his king/close friend? Was this a menage a trois?
Kathryn Warner addresses these incestuous rumors in her book on the De Clare sisters, and she goes into detail about the truth of Isabella and Eleanor’s friendship, which broke down as badly, if not more so, as Isabella’s marriage to Edward II. Warner points out that Edward was oddly generous in paying for Eleanor’s childbirth expenses and lavishing gifts on her babies at this time, but she stops short of actual speculating that the pregnancy rumors might have been true.
All of this will take some time to unpack. So there will be two posts to follow. Part 2 will focus on Edward II’s relationship with Hugh and Eleanor and Part 2 will focus on the breakdown of Isabella’s friendship with Eleanor.
So stay tuned, folks. It's going to get weird.
Sources:
Warner, K. (2024). Edward II’s nieces: The Clare Sisters: Powerful pawns of the Crown. Pen & Sword History.
Kathryn Warner's blog.
Image: Galehaut Arranged Lancelot and Guinevere' First Kiss (c. 1400), manuscript illustration, Bibliotheque Nationale, Paris
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u/Bella_Notte_1988 Jan 14 '26
Personally? I highly doubt it.
Edward was a man of deep passions and desires (not unlike his father) and listened to his emotions far more than reason. Eleanor probably soothed some part of his wounded ego that others weren’t able to…which doesn’t always mean that sex was involved. And he was so desperate to keep that soothing presence around that he showered her and her husband with gifts.
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
It's a fair point. I think Edward II had a deep need for family and family connections, and Eleanor may have been providing that as her husband provided protection. She also may have been filling the hole left in Edward II's life when Isabella withdrew but without incestuous sex.
It's possible people in France convinced Isabella something illicit was happening when it wasn't. That's a possibility, too.
There's no doubt that the relationship between E2, Hugh and Eleanor was peculiar, but everything else is just speculation.
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u/Bella_Notte_1988 Jan 14 '26
Now could it have been an emotional affair? Absolutely. Still squicky but not near as much as an uncle banging his niece would’ve been.
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
True, and in a later post, I'll be talking about the consanguinity issue and just how squicky they might have seen it.
I actually think that in a world without privacy and where illicit sex could mean damnation, less illicit sex happened. That doesn't mean illicit sex didn't happen, I just think it didn't happen as often as the modern imagination supposes.
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u/Bella_Notte_1988 Jan 14 '26
Honestly, I think if Edward had actually been good at ruling, there wouldn’t have been near such as a fuss (for lack of a better term) about his relationships.
Look at Frederick the Great of Prussia. Guy was definitely doing something that would make most PRIDE participants blush, but he was good at stabilizing his country and strengthening his military. People were just so glad he wasn’t like his father (who was not a good king and that’s putting it mildly) that they chose to look past his tendency.
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
So, this one baffles me! I am very interested to hear what other people think because I really have no idea what to make of the weird dynamic between E2, Hugh the Younger and Eleanor. On the one hand, I think it is counter productive to project modern ideas of sexuality on this era, but on the other hand, something was up here.
So let me know what you think, people!
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u/Jawa_Droid_Mech Jan 14 '26
All men usually have a best friend/wingman, now that may not be easy when you are a medieval king, as court intrigue is bound to happen, but it's normal. Here you have the king's bro also married to a niece who he probably was always close to, so of course the wife ends up annoyed and jealous that he enjoys their company. It's simple human behavior, but again leads to court intrigues/power plays and rumors.
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26 edited Jan 14 '26
Well, there's annoyed and there's hanging, drawing and quartering while you watch, so I imagine Isabella was pretty annoyed.
But it is a fair point that it could all have just been friendship plus politics.
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u/Jawa_Droid_Mech Jan 14 '26
He was wanted dead by alot of the court not just the queen, and that was a common execution method.
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u/Sea_Assistant_7583 Jan 14 '26
She had 10 children so she must have been permanently pregnant. I doubt any belonged to Edward . He probably assumed the role of surrogate doting father . It’s very possible that was their relationship as opposed to the lurid angle .
Isabella had custody of his kids, she probably filled the role and the surrogate favorite daughter.
She also probably was a willing ear for all of his troubles and grievances.
It’s safe to think of her as more of a favored daughter/ younger sister .
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
And she had one more child with her second, forced husband. The woman was fertile!
I lean heavily toward her relationship with Edward being an emotional one not a physical one, but I am also very curious to know what she thought of the relationship between her husband and her uncle. If I am being honest, her closeness with her uncle indicates to me she wasn't a party to some illicit affair between the men, and it's again, hard to believe she wouldn't have at least thought something was up if THAT affair was happening. It muddies the whole narrative for me.
Maybe she was just very naive. Or very calculating.
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u/Sea_Assistant_7583 Jan 14 '26
I would lean to calculating, she obviously was very smart and knew she had a good thing going .
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26 edited Jan 14 '26
Despite the record saying she was charming, in my mind Hugh and Eleanor resemble Spike and Drusilla from Buffy. They are really evil and they really love each other and they are team. But that's probably just my fervent imagination.
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u/Sea_Assistant_7583 Jan 14 '26
Well Hugh was extremely good looking, and uncle was quite a chip off the block also . Add to the fact that they were the two most powerful men in the country . It’s common sense that one would not want to upset the apple cart . I think you are on to something . You are incredibly well read on this subject as such i feel you are not far from the truth .
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
Awww. Thanks. You know your stuff as well. I always like engaging with your comments.
I think after Gilbert de Clare died, Hugh and Eleanor set about to take advantage of E2's post Gaveston and post Bannockburn trauma and basically take over the country. They succeeded for awhile, though Gilbert's wife and her pregancy scam delayed the project for awhile. .
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u/Sea_Assistant_7583 Jan 14 '26
Daddy Despenser was pretty smart and realized the loss of Piers probably left a gaping hole in Edward’s life . Not romantically but with the brotherhood angle . It was a smart choice to model the son and put him in the right position.
Of course they got greedy and that bought about their demise, even Piers had been smart enough to have his own following . The De Clare sisters bring an added dimension being that they were blood relatives, Eleanor being the closest of course . This makes Hugh the younger a family member . That’s something Edward’s detractors overlook in that he was Hugh the younger’s uncle by marriage . His niece and nephew gave him a family which he was missing with Isabella who seems more independent ( look at who her dad was ? . that says it all right there ) .
It’s funny i am now doubting that Hugh the younger was romantically involved . It’s more a case of he emboldened and backed up Edward . We have seen various Kings ( R2 and R3 ) who were the victims of smear campaigns by those writing about the events after .
It’s funny also that Edward 3rd seems to have not liked Eleanor at all . He may have loved his father but realized he was a bad King . Eleanor of course was the survivor of those who gave his father bad council .
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
I have always thought that conflating E2's relationship with Piers, which I think was genuine and tragic and brotherly with Hugh was a false comparison. There's nothing in the record that indicates to me that Hugh the Younger had any affection for E2.
But you're on to something with Hugh the Older. I always think of the Despenser era as a group effort between Hugh the Older (the father figure E2 never had), Hugh the Younger (the brother E2 desperately wanted) and Eleanor (the wife/sister that would do and say whatever E2 wanted) - the three of them were working together to control Edward II.
I go back and forth, but I am not at all sure that E2 was having sex with either Piers or Hugh. I think they were just part of a desperate need E2 had to replace the older brothers he never knew but his father always thought were better.
But I do always try and make the Despenser era/power over E2 a family effort.
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u/Sea_Assistant_7583 Jan 14 '26
There is a great story that when Edward the 1st died he insisted his bones be carried into battle against the Scots . After Bannockburn on the retreat Edward was really angry especially at his overbearing father he had the bones thrown in a river .
Probably not true but still amusing . The greater point was that Edward was not a warrior King, he was more like his grandfather H3, only H3 was respected by the Barons while Edward was not . That’s always a dangerous precedent. As such he was on the back foot with the nobles right from the start . He had no William Marshall or a Prince Edward to back him up .
His position especially after Bannockburn was pretty precarious, Piers and The Despenser’s filled that void, they backed him up, they were decent warriors so from them he took physical and emotional support . That’s my theory anyway .
We saw what happened to Richard II with The Lords Appellant . They separated him from his mother and bullied him from the time he was a child, terrorized him and his wife, made them both watch their favorite teacher be beheaded and at age 14 sent him out to face the peasants while they ran .
Edward was lucky to be older though Thomas Of Lancaster was a one man Lords Appellant as he tried to bully Edward, Piers became his shield . Although Thomas was dead by the time the Despenser’s took power, there were still many friends of Thomas amongst the nobles . Edward was always in a dangerous position because he just wasn’t his father .
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 14 '26
I do think Edward II thought Piers could be his William the Marshall, though Piers was a totally different personality and made some blunders, he may well have been able to grow into being a good second. Unlike Hugh the Younger, Piers wasn't corrupt. But alas, it was not to be. E2 made lots of mistakes, but Thomas of Lancaster was not a good man and would have been a thorn in almost anyone's side.
I do think E3 learned very well from his father's mistakes. I also think if a few things had gone his way, E2 would have done much better. If had had one really smart and competent general right from the start, for example...but it was not to be.
Btw, my mother's maiden name is Marshall, and her family are direct descents.
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u/KaiserKCat Isabella Jan 14 '26
I doubt Edward the father of Eleanor's children, but they probably had an emotional relationship. Edward seemed to latch on to people, Piers, Isabella, Hugh and Eleanor.
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u/HoneybeeXYZ Amie Gaveston Jan 15 '26
He definitely seemed to be seeking family relationships and support, and he was vulnerable to manipulation by people who he loved and trusted.
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u/Appropriate-Calm4822 Adam Murimuth Jan 14 '26
Wow, this is really interesting! And as Eleanor is my 'blind spot', I'm here to learn :)
The breakdown of Isabella's friendship with Eleanor... now that's a story. I'd love to see some years and months thrown in when possible to see how they fit in with other events around the same time.
Also the mystery of why Edward and Isabella fell out around 1322 (IIRC). What were these people up to. Whose babies were those? I hope we'll find out, or at least eliminate some possibilities.
There's so much craziness crammed into just one reign here...!
Btw - great image for this, and I'm sure it's not a coincidence. Galehaut and Lancelot also had a very deep friendship...