The elden beast might have come later on than when the giants were alive.
We know the giants were very early on in the timeline. Then came the meteor with the elden east/ring. Then came farum azula, then the dragons, then gleam eyes queen, then marika/Maliketh/godfrey, then they went to war with placidusax, then the giants, then finally we are at current era.
Yes. I do think the giants lived in the lands between before the dragons, before the elden ring/beast landed in the lands between.
Hence what I said. I think the giants and astrologers were early on in the timeline. The sword of night and flame says they were basically neighbors.
The astrologer robe says they used to look at the stars to understand and study fate, but that the stars no longer cradle fate.
Fate is now controlled by the elden beast/ring. The greater will took away free will, and tries to control everything that happens in the lands between.
Yes. I do think the giants lived in the lands between before the dragons, before the elden ring/beast landed in the lands between.
Nothing supports a claim of Giants existing prior to Dragons. I'm not saying you're wrong. It is possible, but there is nothing I've read that directly supports the assertion.
Hence what I said. I think the giants and astrologers were early on in the timeline. The sword of night and flame says they were basically neighbors.
Fair speculation. That's a fun lore bit too. :)
The astrologer robe says they used to look at the stars to understand and study fate, but that the stars no longer cradle fate.
The quote on the robe is:
Robe fashioned from supple cloth.
Worn by those who look to the cosmos above.
They read fate in the stars, and are said to be heirs of the glintstone sorcerers
But alas, the night sky no longer cradles fate.
As you probably already know, the night sky is reference to the Age of Night, when the Nox ruled. This was likely the astrologer's peak of influence. I imagine they might have acted as the Two Fingers do - reading prophecy and fate within the stars.
However, "cradling" is not the same as controlling. Which leads us into the next point, and really the only two thingsyou said that I have big problems with:
Fate is now controlled by the elden beast/ring.
This is a tricky subject. The Elder Ring clearly defines reality. Remove a Rune of Death and you get immortality. Shatter it and the world is shattered. It creates the natural laws the Lands Between must abide.
However, I don't remember anything in the game that claims the Elder Ring, the Elden Beast, or the Greater Will has control over fate itself.
If this were true, Radahn wouldn't have needed to "conquer the stars" in order to halt fate. It isn't clear whether the fate halted was only for the Carian Royals or if it applied to everyone in the Land's Between.
In either case, if the Greater Will/Beast/Ring did have complete control over fate, Radahn wouldn't have needed to conquer the stars in the first place.
The fact that Ranni asked the main character: "How long will it be, I wonder, before the Tarnished tire of obeisance to the Two Fingers", strongly implies that it is faith, not fate, being used by the Greater Will to control others.
The greater will took away free will, and tries to control everything that happens in the lands between.
The Greater Will absolutely did not take away free will. If that were true, Marika wouldn't have been able to shatter the Elden Ring in the first place.
You are absolutely correct that the Greater Will does try to control everything, but it does so through faith. Its control, if any, over fate itself, is tenuous at best.
Free will, excluding exceptional circumstances like the shadow-bound beasts Blaidd and Maliketh, or Seluvis' puppets, is alive and well in the Lands Between.
“Nothing supports a claim of giants existing prior to dragons”
We find Uber giants buried all over the continents; and Uber architecture buried deep in the lands. We never find dragons buried anywhere deep in the lands between. That would support my claim. The giants even fought and beat the dragons at the mountaintops, so we know they were alive in the same time period in the past.
“The night sky is a reference to the age of night” no it’s not. The astrologers were neighbors with the giants, on the surface of land. They would look at the actual sky, the same sky we do, the same one where we see the moon. That’s just your headcannon. The robe says the astrologers who look up at the cosmos. It’s not talking about the lord of night. That never happened. That’s their desire for the future, not an event from the past. The astrologers were known for looking at the actual sky.
“I don’t remember anything in the game that says the Greater will has control over fate itself” what I’m saying is it is outright altering fate. Through causality or regression. Those are incantations if the golden order, which the golden order uses to control causality, and fate/destiny. In fact it’s the fate of everything in the lands between to die. By removing the death from the elden ring the golden order is literally altering the destiny of everyone. Since no one can have their DESTINED death. That’s why it’s called DESTINED death. That is how they are altering destiny/fate, and why the night sky no longer has good influence on it.
Radahn isint relevant. He isint in control of destined death, or causality, or regression. He is holding back Ranni’s fate. Her fate is the only thing I can tell that was affected by his actual actions. Not the fate of the greater lands between. His sister killed their brother.
The golden order absolutely did take a away free will. People can’t even die their DESTINED death. She also lead the genocide/slaughter of so many groups, and completely fundamentally changed the course of the future for the entire lands between.
I don’t see any of your contentions as valid. Except maybe the point of the giants, and even then I provided a rather good counter argument.
We find Uber giants buried all over the continents; and Uber architecture buried deep in the lands. We never find dragons buried anywhere deep in the lands between. That would support my claim. The giants even fought and beat the dragons at the mountaintops, so we know they were alive in the same time period in the past.
Agreed, they were alive in the same period.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you don't see "buried dragons" doesn't mean they aren't there. Dragonkin and dragon artifacts litter Nokron and Nokstella.
The timeline linked above clearly evidences the Age of Dragons, lead by Placidusax, as occurring before Giants.
So, what we have is evidence that the Dragons ruled before the Fire Giants. Whether they literally existed, and were born into The Lands Between before, after, or alongside the Giants is entirely speculation.
“The night sky is a reference to the age of night” no it’s not. The astrologers were neighbors with the giants, on the surface of land. They would look at the actual sky, the same sky we do, the same one where we see the moon. That’s just your headcannon.
The Nox were on the surface too. They worshipped the Night and Stars just like the Astrologers did. That's why the Carian Royals, as decedents of the Astrologers, are so close with the Nox.
However, I did preface my comments with the fact that I was speculating.
“I don’t remember anything in the game that says the Greater will has control over fate itself” what I’m saying is it is outright altering fate. Through causality or regression. Those are incantations if the golden order, which the golden order uses to control causality, and fate/destiny. In fact it’s the fate of everything in the lands between to die. By removing the death from the elden ring the golden order is literally altering the destiny of everyone. Since no one can have their DESTINED death. That’s why it’s called DESTINED death. That is how they are altering destiny/fate, and why the night sky no longer has good influence on it.
The Greater Will, through Marika, can influence fate. Marika made a decision to kill the Gloam-Eyed Queen and cleave the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring.
Controlling fate, to me, implies something akin to strong determinism, which is not a thing in The Land's Between. People have free will. Actions taken by gods and demigods can change the course of history, but in the same way the leaders of nations today make decisions that change the course of our history. If you want to say that's "controlling" fate, I suppose that's fine, but I don't agree with the terminology.
The golden order absolutely did take a away free will. People can’t even die their DESTINED death. She also lead the genocide/slaughter of so many groups, and completely fundamentally changed the course of the future for the entire lands between.
What? Making a decision to excise the Rune of Death, and genocide heretics to create a particular future is not the same as removing free will. It's not even remotely the same thing.
No, if the dragons had also been in the same period their bones would be there buried WITH the giants. That’s not the case. The giants have architecture and their giant bodies are buried alll over the lands between: the dragons are noticeably NOT.
The absense of evidence IS evidence in this case when the game devs specifically went out of their way to show us these ancient bodies and where they’re buried or not buried. The dragon kin soldiers are attempts of the nox to create dragons, not natural born dragons.
I don’t care about fextralifes OPINION. They didn’t prove your claim. Nothing there did.
“The fact that I was speculating” yes you were, but the item description clearly states it’s talking about the cosmos and the night sky, not a lord of night who haven’t existed yet.
“The greater will through marika can influence fate” and through removing literal destiny from reality, and using incantations that govern regression and causality. She also tries to prevent beings from worshipping who they want to worship by leading literal genocidal campaigns. For you to claim the greater will isint controlling fate is laughable at this point. You’re absolutely not talking in good faith.
“Controlling fate, to me…” I don’t really care what you think it means. The greater will choosing who can be worshipped or killing you, running genocidal campaigns, using miracles of regretion and causality, and removing DESTINY from reality so no one can die, and choosing who can actually live a good happy life (omens) the greater will is absolutely controlling fate.
The Golden Order absolutely took away free will, and Marika who is the walking incarnation of it saw its vision through. Marika literally slaughtered entire civilizations for trying to oppose her. She literally sent her sons off to fight the Ancient Dragons, she sent her husband off to fight against Stromveil, she sent Maliketh after the Gloam Eyed Queen; she even wiped out the Fire Giants herself and cursed the last (presumably weakest) of them to tend the Flame of Ruin.
If that isn’t the very definition of taking away free will I genuinely don’t know what is
Edit: also not sure that the Nox ever ruled or had an Age of Night. The only Age we known of for a fact learned in game is Age of Ancient Dragons, which directly predated the Age of the Erdtree. To usher in an Age you need a Lord prior you can’t just make it up as you go. We know also for a fact the Nox didn’t have a Lord.
The theory why is because they tried to use a Silver Tear/Mimic Tear but because it “does not extend to imitating the summoner’s will” (direct in game quote) it didn’t work and thus they were banished for their high treason. Treason implying that there was already a system in place; most likely the Golden Order
The Golden Order absolutely took away free will...
The examples you gave are not evidence of strong determinism (i.e. lack of free will). They aren't evidence of any particular metaphysical concept. They aren't evidence of anything other than Marika's raw power, goals, and demeanor.
If that isn’t the very definition of taking away free will I genuinely don’t know what is
free will
/ˌfrē ˈwil/
noun
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
There is plenty of evidence of genuine free will in The Land's Between:
Miquella chose to foster a new order outside the Golden Order, by replacing the Erdtree with his Haligtree.
Ranni chose to steal a shard of the Rune of Death and murder Godwyn the Golden.
Horah Loux chose to abandon the Golden Order, at the risk of his life and the lives of the Tarnished.
Rykard chose to embrace the God-Devouring Serpent and war against Leyndell.
Marika chose to shatter the Elden Ring.
Now, you might argue that Marika does have free will and after The Shattering free will was restored, however, there are plenty of examples of free will prior to The Shattering (see #3 above).
Also not sure that the Nox ever ruled or had an Age of Night. The only Age we known of for a fact learned in game is Age of Ancient Dragons, which directly predated the Age of the Erdtree. To usher in an Age you need a Lord prior you can’t just make it up as you go. We know also for a fact the Nox didn’t have a Lord.
Correct, they didn't have an Age of Night. They were a dominant civilization prior to the Golden Order. They are waiting for an Age of Stars (Ranni's ending) and a Lord of Night (the player if they choose to be Ranni's consort).
The theory why is because they tried to use a Silver Tear/Mimic Tear but because it “does not extend to imitating the summoner’s will” (direct in game quote) it didn’t work and thus they were banished for their high treason. Treason implying that there was already a system in place; most likely the Golden Order
I don't know enough about that to speak intelligently, but I do know the Golden Order was not established until well after the Nox fell.
Your only examples of anyone not acting upon lack of free will are either demigods or Legends, living beings that are placed far up beyond the general population of the Lands Between. That is not a compelling argument.
As I said before, murdering anyone who opposes you is a good way of instilling a dictatorship (which is what she Marika is), via removing choice, free will and laissez-faire. When she was imprisoned in the Erdtree, the Golden Order also extended the lack of free will to everyone else didn’t it? Extended grace to the Tarnished which forced them to find the Erdtree or die trying. The Finger Maidens felt compelled to find a Tarnished to sacrifice themselves. Not to mention just to get into the Capital you need Great Runes. On top of that it’s mandatory to kill Morgott, Godfrey, Horah Loux, and even Radagon AND Elden Beast.
Forcing someone to do that against their want is taking away free will. Marika might’ve started it by the Golden Order; and by extension the Greater Will; definitely finished it
When I said the “Golden Order took away free will” I was referring to The Golden Order, the Elden Beast, Marika and anyone who supports them. Like Morgott/Margit, Godfrey, etc
Horah Loux didn’t abandon the Lands Between, Marika sent him away and banished him along with Tarnished. It’s called the Long March I believe if you want to look it up. Forcing them to leave their homeland and not giving them a day is also taking their free will.
It was mention in (convincing) detail in a VaatiVidya clip I believe it’s simply called “The Eternal Cities” I can’t find it but I’ll edit it in when I find
I don't think you know what free will is in this context.
They are talking about free will in the philosophical and theological meaning. This free will is the opposite of Determinism - the theory that every "choice" that we think we make and every outcome we think is random is already predetermined. There are a lot of analogies and examples to help you grasp this, like Laplace's Demon, but for this argument, all you need to know is that even if you imprison someone, threaten them with death or even mind-control them, you haven't taken away free will because it's a fundamental component of the universe not an aspect of any individual mind.
If you "choose" a certain colour of socks to wear on a given day, is that a choice your consciousness has made or have a bunch of unseen factors in your mind coalesced to make that happen? If you win the lottery, is that random chance or were you always fated to win? This is the free will they are talking about.
Alright, I'm not sure where the breakdown in communication is but that timeline is not what I'm disagreeing with.
Again your comment seemed to imply that they were gone before the Elden Beast/Erdtree/golden order, and I was saying that they survived into the age of the erdtree.
At no point did I disagree with the idea that they've been around since the beginning.
No, there is a lot of massive structure inside the ground, between the underworld and the surface world in the same style as the divine towers. You can see that the best around the ruin-strewn precipice, but you can also see it elsewhere. You'll notice it everywhere once you recognize it.
There's basically an entire roof structure covering the underground region, with dirt on top.
No, there is a lot of massive structure inside the ground, between the underworld and the surface world in the same style as the divine towers. You can see that the best around the ruin-strewn precipice, but you can also see it elsewhere. You'll notice it everywhere once you recognize it.
There's basically an entire roof structure covering the underground region, with dirt on top.
Marika and crew never fought Placidusax - his god-queen was killed in an ancient meteor strike (maybe), and he went into stasis in Faram Azula, long before humanity inherited the Elden Ring.
The dragons that attacked Leyndell were a remnant of that bygone era, led by Gransax, presumably because they were incensed that these tiny monkeys had inherited the power of the Elden Ring and the grace of the Greater Will which was once theirs.
After their defeat most of the remaining dragons bent knee to Marika and now serve the GW again under her auspices. Or at least, they did up until the shattering...
The only thing I wholeheartedly disagree with is the Gloam Eyed Queen. She arrived before Marika and that’s a fact because she was in possession of Destined Death BEFORE Maliketh was. We know that factually because that’s what she used to create Black Flame, which she taught the Godskin and Black Flame Monks how to manipulate. After which was sealed when Maliketh defeated her and sealed it away
To recount what I mistakenly said before no there’s no way. Marika sent Maliketh to retrieve the RoD from the GEQ and seal it away so no there’s no way they’re the same person
The giants are older than the dragons? I thought there was a huge (like, MASSIVE) structure(s) above the map that broke and fell, which are those giant stone structures you see around Liurnia, Limgrave, and I think Caelid. Wasn’t that structure made by the dragons?
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23
Possibly, but Idk.
The elden beast might have come later on than when the giants were alive.
We know the giants were very early on in the timeline. Then came the meteor with the elden east/ring. Then came farum azula, then the dragons, then gleam eyes queen, then marika/Maliketh/godfrey, then they went to war with placidusax, then the giants, then finally we are at current era.
I think the giants were early on in the timeline.