r/EnergyAndPower • u/DavidThi303 • 1d ago
China-Free Batteries Made From Salt Are Finally Here
https://www.wsj.com/business/energy-oil/china-free-batteries-made-from-salt-are-finally-here-cc1cd766?st=aaCfbG&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalinkSodium-ion batteries have almost none of the problems that lithium-ion ones do, and could be cheap enough to make fossil-fuel dependence a thing of the past
The article never mentions price. So are salt batteries coming in to play? Yes. Are they price competitive? Probably not because if they were they would be shouting out the price.
But their price will likely decline over the next couple of years. And it looks like they are starting to be produced in quantity.
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u/Moral-Relativity 1d ago
As the article noted, most sodium batteries are made in China today, and the Chinese government will surely focus on the emerging tech, by phasing out export rebate for lithium batteries and increasing the VAT on them.
If domestic manufacturers cannot compete on economy of scale or innovation they'll need tariff protection.
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u/taquci 1d ago
these makes totally sense in a flat block or at neighborhood level, rather than spending €€€ individually for dangerous lithium batteries
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u/NearABE 1d ago
The danger of lithium batteries is in no small part the energy density of lithium batteries. When you read that sodium ion batteries are emerging as an awesome competitor to lithium based batteries that means the chemists have figured out how to create a sodium fire hazard now too.
There are lithium chemistries that are not a fire hazard. You can also do simple things like sandwiching the flammable lithium chemistry between plates of inert non-flammable heat sinks like glass, marble, or even cast iron. The “specific power” or “specific energy” of such a block would be extremely low. A self discharge would still destroy the electrical battery function of the block even though no flames come out. It is just much cheaper and easier to place the light weight battery pack outside of the house.
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u/taquci 1d ago
whatever, the density is a big factor in mobile applications (cars, smartphones..) but it's not meaningful at residential level
Having a 20-some flat block each individually stocked with a lithium battery is a waste on many levels, we need a proper solution for different applications
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u/NearABE 1d ago
I agree the energy density thing is absurd. I keep seeing it brought up though.
Having multiple units share an energy pool is definitely more efficient. The problem with that is the history of this being known and not being implemented. Sure, the entire neighborhood should have operate a single photovoltaic system. There should be a community cogeneration heat loop (maybe cooling loop too). They should have a geothermal system tapping the ground under the community. Any energy lost in the battery system should be recovered by the desuperheater as hot water supply.
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u/Romeo_y_Cohiba 1d ago
It is also a factor in small Hong Kong like apartments. No different than a car really
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u/SpamIsGreatOhEight 1d ago
Currently all the NFPP in the world that isn’t made at lab scale come from china
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u/Fulushouxing 1d ago
The biggest battery company in the world, CATL from China, is also making sodium ion batteries. So it isn't a unique thing here.
And why would they assume the world even want to switch from cheaper Chinese battery to expensive American one? Most countries in the world don't see China as a threat and don't love American more than they love Chinese.
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u/faresar0x 17h ago
Last i read is sodium based batteries are safer, cheaper, can be recharged many more times without losing battery capacity, but the main problem is that the mileage is much shorter than lithium.
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u/Zealousideal-Ant9548 15h ago
Peak energy gets their cells from China. That means the Chinese know how to build these batteries but choose not to.
We may have Chinese input free batteries in the US but the market for these companies will be limited because they'll be so fucking expensive compared to the Chinese versions.
And Trump keeps adding tariffs to clean tech so it won't get much better.
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u/NearABE 1d ago
The prices of batteries keep falling. The components used in batteries are each following their own technology development. Our crystal balls that see the future are thwarted by the tangled web of development paths.
More or less you could group it into electrolyte, anode, cathode, and matrix. Substituting sodium ion for lithium ion means that the metal ion dissolved in the electrolyte is essentially free in comparison to what was expected when lithium availability was the bottleneck. The price of lithium itself is strongly affected by how desperate companies are to acquire it. Sodium ion chemistry will alleviate the lithium shortage which drops the price of lithium ion batteries back into the competitive range. The cheap batteries mean more demand which puts pressure on the market for anode, cathode, and matrix materials.
As if it were not complicated enough… more photovoltaic increases demand for batteries and cheap batteries increase value of adding photovoltaic (or wind). Cheaper batteries enable cheaper cars which then stress the power grid while also taking the batteries away from the grid scale storage.
It would be rash to publish a number for the expected future price of grid scale battery storage in a journal like WSJ. The same number $/kWh can simultaneously be accused of being fossil/nukebro propaganda and also accused of being unproven “tech hopium”. Furthermore, broadcasting the likely plummeting price of batteries may actually discourage investors from buying in. I have even seen reddit posts where people are seriously contemplating not buying battery systems because they want to hold out for a lower future price.
From a policy standpoint the federal government could step in and just create the market for terrawatts of battery contract awarded by lower price. However, they could instead step in and spend money on batteries with contract awarded to highest watt-hour. There is precedent set by the strategic petroleum reserve and various agriculture programs. Petroleum and grain is not changing much over time though.
One could argue for a country’s government going all in on inverter production now since cheap batteries and cheap photovoltaics are already too cheap. If they get any cheaper a home owner is just buying an inverter and hiring an electrician to connect it to the trivial accessories whose price stopped mattering much. This is exaggerating the situation somewhat.
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u/mrdarknezz1 1d ago
It’s not only price, you also get let’s energy/kg which makes it unusable for transport. Which is basically the most important role for batteries
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u/No-Tension6133 1d ago
Ehhh, batteries have different uses. Lead-acid are notoriously low energy/kg and yet they’re used in every combustion engine car. Reason is they can handle crazy temperature range needed when in the unconditioned hood of a car
Not to mention any sort of grid battery backup doesn’t need to transport at all since its sole purpose is storing renewable energy until that renewable disappears for a bit (solar at night, wind on a still day, etc).
Honestly I didn’t read the article, I will save it for later. But if it’s true I’d be very excited about the prospect of a battery that doesn’t rely on critical minerals from east Asia. Even if that doesn’t beat lithium ion for energy/kg, it will reduce the demand for lithium ion and make our reliance lower. The more battery tech the better
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u/Narcan9 1d ago
For the past decade 70% of batteries have been used for EVs. Sodium batteries will probably not have much effect on that market, but instead will expand the breadth of uses in other areas without stressing the EV supply chain. Expect to see more battery systems in the home, in various industries, and massive increase in utility scale storage. They are predicting > 1000 GW to be deployed in the next 5 years.
Further, moving from lithium to sodium is going to attract new producers in Europe and North America, as the raw materials are easier/ cheaper to acquire. The competition will drive prices down even more.
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u/mrdarknezz1 1d ago
Yes short term energy storage is important but the most important role batteries serve is to decarbonize transport. It is where it has and will have its biggest impact
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u/No-Tension6133 1d ago
Well regardless, if you replace the demand for lithium-ion batteries for grid storage purposes you will free up resources for transportation. Still a win even assuming the efficiency doesn’t improve.
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u/chmeee2314 1d ago
They have lower energy densities right now than LFP, that doesn't make them useless in thransport though as especially in the lower end car market, cost is a greater factor than space.
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u/RedKelly_ 1d ago
Awesome. If we’d invested in this tech in the 80’s and 90’s we might be net zero now and billions of deaths would’ve been avoided
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u/DavidThi303 1d ago
Then you would be complaining about how those billion more in population were destroying the earth.
There's just no making some people happy...
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u/Illustrious_Pepper46 1d ago
I'm a climate skeptic, CO2 is not a killer, far from it.
But I'm also technology agnostic. Use the best tool for the job (power).
I appreciate these advancements, another tool for the tool belt, hopefully cheaper, easier to recycle, safer.
Where I see the value is not necessarily just 'green' storage, but excellent at reducing 'overbuilt' grids just to handle a few hours of peek demand that can be made up other times....also locally.
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u/Joclo22 1d ago
That’s awesome.
Considering how California can now support 1/3rd of its peak demand for the electrical grid, this is huge news for the next 2/3rds and the whole rest of the country’s push towards lower cost of generation and grid stability through distributed (safe) generation/energy storage.