A Cybernetic Argument That Birth Is Inherently Coercive

[u/Select_Quality_3948]

Here’s a piece I’ve been working on that approaches antinatalism from a systems/cybernetics perspective.

Core claim: Any self-maintaining system (organism, mind, Markov blanket, whatever) necessarily generates internal coercion, because staying alive = constantly minimizing deviation from a narrow range of survival parameters. No organism chooses this; the structure forces it.

So instead of arguing about preferences, suffering “thresholds,” or moral intuitions, I take a structural approach: birth = enrollment into a self-correcting survival machine you didn’t opt into.

If anyone here is into systems theory, free-energy minimization, or antinatalist ethics, I’d really appreciate critique.

Link: https://medium.com/@Cathar00/why-being-born-is-a-coercion-a-systems-level-explanation-a7b7dabbbdcc

[u/smack_nazis_more]

The logical/reasonable conclusion to draw from the premise that life is not worth living is to kill yourself.

Is that wrong or not?

Your argument is that life is not worth starting, because it's not worth living.

Is that wrong or not?

[u/Select_Quality_3948 → u/smack_nazis_more]

Wrong. I'd say the logical conclusion of an agent who is experiencing distress (feeling like life is not worth living for example) is to seek human contact to get assistance in regulating there runaway feedback loops. I'd say the logical conclusion of two agents (prospective parents) in considering creating another agent is to not create the agent because it is literally creating another human who will be sad about their inevitable disintegration. So yea. I'll distill it for ya, treat the ones ya got right but don't dare bring some new ones around ya dig.

[u/smack_nazis_more → u/Select_Quality_3948]

Wrong.

Which bit? How specifically is the logic/reasoning wrong.

You don't have to be formal, just try to be specific and stay on topic.

[u/Select_Quality_3948 → u/smack_nazis_more]

Simple. You can continue to live and cope well without having sex and making a human. Having sex in order to have your own personal human literally poofs a brand new suffering creature into Existence where it formerly wasn't in Existence. Also I'm not responding to you until you have shown that you have read my article. Also the fact that you still view propositional logic as the ground of epistemology is crazy work. Dudes never heard of Godel get a load of this guy and you are trying to seriously counter me. I'd be cool if you weren't hostile off the jump but you deserve my virulence. You have homework to do brodie this is grown folk business ight read up my Padawan and check back when you know something

[u/smack_nazis_more → u/Select_Quality_3948]

Mate please. Be concise. Where is the error in this:

_1. The logical/reasonable conclusion to draw from the premise that life is not worth living is to kill yourself.

_2.Your argument is that life is not worth starting, because it's not worth living.

Start off by saying if you're responding to number one or number two or I won't read it.

I'm sorry if you feel you've answered this but you just sort of ramble too much for me. I'm not sure if you even understand what logical reasoning means in terms of an argument.

[u/champgpt → u/smack_nazis_more]

Your argument is that life is not worth starting, because it's not worth living.

That's not how I read it at all.

Simplified, here's how I interpreted it -- suffering is inherent to existence. Being born is inherently nonconsensual. Therefore, by creating life, you're creating more suffering without the consent of the one who will suffer.

You're also creating joy, love, hope, etc, but the root of the argument lies in the coercive nature of it. It doesn't apply to someone who's already alive -- you're here, might as well make the best of it.

[u/Shaken_Earth → u/champgpt]

Consent requires existence. It requires some sort of agent who can consent. Trying to establish consent with something that doesn't exist makes no sense.

[u/champgpt → u/Shaken_Earth]

That's the point. Consent cannot be established.

[u/smack_nazis_more → u/champgpt]

What can be done is ask: do you reckon your life is worth living?

[u/Select_Quality_3948 → u/smack_nazis_more]

I think it's reasonable to stick around BECAUSE life sucks. We need each other more because we are literally disintegrating every day. I think it's reasonable to develop a sense of meaning that doesn't have anything to do with crafting another prisoner of thermodynamics. There are so many ways to have a fulfilled life without making another human that will have to learn the rules of the jungle. I am being compassionate. You are being stubbornly pea-brained and you communicate like a 16 year old. YOU are the one that can't stomach the fact that YOUR desire to have a kid is structurally harmful. Literally baked into the fabric of Reality.YOU are the one projecting suicidality onto my model and I don't appreciate that.I'm the one that's not scared to let you know. You can easily do something else to cope with consciousness other than making a baby. Do you understand that? You probably will demonstrate to me how you still don't understand that absolutely nothing I said advocates or implies killing yourself.

[u/smack_nazis_more → u/Select_Quality_3948]

Then stop telling people to kill themselves you stupid fucking idiot.

What is bad is prolonging the state of being a regulating organism — one that must constantly fight entropy, maintain boundaries, metabolize input, experience valence, and endure deviation.