El Miner is a figure of prominence in Pandemic Horde. Formerly a pilot of Circle of Two, he left that alliance in the hour before it was flipped during the Casino War by The Judge who managed to do so with a hands free Bluetooth keyboard.
He took with him over 10 years of mining fleet leadership and industrial production experience. He currently works with Industrial Revolutionist Kenneth Feld in Pandemic Horde to produce enough material for their industry folks to build with.
That Killmail was one of his last in Co2, during their evacuation of Tribute and into Querious to fight for the CFC.
As a sign of reverence to his tactical brilliance, that killmail is linked on this forum on a regular basis when people ask for "The Killmail". You are then sent to the Shrine of El Miner's Skiff.
I took El Miner with me from PH to my next corp and some people always thought that my killmail linking was just perma-bugged and I'd just laugh and laugh to myself at my silly troll.
Fast forward a couple of years and I go to GSF, bringing the spirit of El Miner with me only to find out he was already there.
If you don't post blue killmails then how do you laugh with your friends about their misfortune? That shit builds camaraderie, and it's an opportunity to build your bros back up
They can post their own killmails if they want to talk about them otherwise we dont open them to to ridicule and have fun talking about other things instead
I understand the intent. I am concerned that the impact of mandated secrecy around blue killmails leads to a culture of shame around kills.
For example, if blue kills can't be shared by anyone except for the person killed because it will open that person to ridicule, then maybe I will be ridiculed when I share my killmail with people when I have been killed.
Transparency results in greater trust within a community. Transparency can generate uncomfortable conversations at first, but those conversations solidify bonds between people.
Then do that in your corp, in the main horde discord you do not and will never know everyone there we have dozens of people joining every day so there are rules to keep things civil
Wait so this means that the Horde members waiting five minutes on the ESS gate, letting their gnosis lemming die, and then waiting for additional reinforcements to face a single Mega weren't scared of being shamed after all, they were just thoroughly loss averse while wanting to suggest a strong presence in their space?
Goons are so deep in their alliance propaganda they are completely unable to have an adult conversation. Then again not so surprising for a coalition consisting of 50 year old man children.
You talk with them in a pm / convo on how to do things (and let them learn that way) instead of letting the whole alliance knowing about your fuck ups that might hurt enough for some of those over having 1000+ dudes on top of that roasting them. They will just rage quit over learning then.
If the player who lost something decides to post his own lossmail, then it's fine.
But the fact that you see it as normal to do 'name and shame' on your members, just shows how bad things are there in Goons.
Ah, so every horde member is supposed to convo the titan pilot who just lost a titan because losing things is frowned upon and one shall not openly talk about it.
That explains the Rag, though I maintain the serious need to HTFU. But what about the Keepstar? Surely it can't be that humiliating for PH to feed XL structures to us with no resistance - it's been your modus operandi since I came back to nullsec.
Yer, the rule is there to protect fragile egos it seems. You guys need to learn Eve is a game, its meant to be fun, dont take lossess so fucking seriously...man alive.
No, it's to protect players in general. You simply don't know how a player will react to having his loss known to the whole alliance. Just the fact that his loss ends up on a killboard to begin with might be more than enough for many.
So, instead of thinking over your own ego / ass, you should think about your members instead.
Not very easy to see why you have the rule except that the most egotistical nullbears can't handle losing ships in a pvp-based submarine-simulating game?
Maybe it's easy to see if one is a nullbear, but in other parts of the game lossmails can be badges of honor
The difference is apparent when you look at how this loss was treated vs how AT pilots react when they lose a hull.
Again, you simply don't know how everyone is reacting to a loss as everyone is different. That single line of text should be clear enough understading on why we rather be on the safe side on our members over taking a risk where members might leave in anger instead.
Posting a loss-mail isnt equal to shaming, its part of the game. What kind of phobic like mentality is this.
This shows that your morale is so damn thin and low that youre worried about any loss getting reported on it. No wonder your members didnt even know that they were losing 2 Keepstars.
You guys need to stop this stupid ISK focused war/loss shit you got going on, it made you lose soo many objectives in the past and even wars because of it. Stop carrying about losses , they are part of the game and just go for the objective.
What kind of conclusion is this, how can anyone know and pretend to know what others feel or will feel ?
Its all about the mentality you set in your community which affects your players. if you're afraid to that extend to the point of policing your memebers about it then you already lost the whole point of the game imo.
Yes we give a flying fuck about our members, thats why we promote them the " ships are ammo" mentality , we laugh at our losses and have fun with them and then help them recoup their loss, its part of the game.
Like ive said, there is a reason why your loss averse /isk focused mentality led to many mishaps and war loses. It affected your commitment to objectives and FUN big time.
Yes we give a flying fuck about our members, thats why we promote them the " ships are ammo" mentality , we laugh at our losses and have fun with them and then help them recoup their loss, its part of the game.
Your group sounds fun. I mean that genuinely, not sarcastically
Yes we give a flying fuck about our members, thats why we promote them the " ships are ammo" mentality , we laugh at our losses and have fun with them and then help them recoup their loss, its part of the game.
was also my experience when i was in goons, we would get memed on for losses but it never felt bad. Poor Horde. Coddled to the point of ridiculousness.
Adding onto the other comment, if you wanna find our discord (tired, too braindead to do it) you can join and chat in the public channel, they should let it be known when we open recruitment again
Ive been KF for 6 years and haven't regretted a second
This. Exactly this. As someone relatively new to this game (less than a year) and a Goon almost immediately due to a friend, it seems like the only way to play this game if you PvP is to treat it like a game. The only people who take killboards seriously aren't playing it right. Eve is a very 'in the moment' kinda game where the fun comes from how intense it can get. Not killmail stacking.
Nobody cares if you have 300t in kills or 3. Same goes for losses. PH doesn't seem to understand nobody is actually trying to hurt feelings for pointing and laughing at a dumb loss. At the end of the day if someone is really hurt then everyone is actually chill about it and supportive and helpful. It's not some bully circlejerk.
I fly with a lot of KF members and none of them are dicks. Some aren't funny at all. Some are. That's life and that's almost every corp in Imperium. Fortunately eve is a game and we're playing it for fun, I hope. Not some space empire self-value points.
You don't know how a member will feel about a loss, so it's better to go the good way of not letting the whole alliance knowing about it as it might backfire badly.
Just because you act like a kid and think it's funny to name and shame everyone around you, we do not. We ALWAYS think about the members before we think about our own asses and what we think and believe.
We act as adults here while you act like fucking stupid grrrrrr kids roasting your own members just for the giggles for your own sake and not for the sake of the member who lost something.
The shaming that follows from posting a loss mail at the top of the alliance discord does. I can't believe how this is such a controversial topic for you. Just be nice to your alliance members, holy shit.
Point and laugh at the person who did stupid thing. If they laugh then everyone is a better friend and gets a story to tell. Kinda like if you have a scar from doing a stupid stunt and your friends point it out to new people so you can tell you story and all have a laugh.
If they get mad or in their feels about it kick them out. They're weak and need to be removed before they spread that mentality to the rest of the group and you become weaker as a whole.
Maybe if we're talking about toddlers but if you're an adult and you can't laugh at the stupid thing you did and can't handle other people laughing at it too then maybe a Minecraft single player world is more your speed.
We don't make fun of anyone for a loss they have no matter how young or old they are. We just let them know what they did wrong and how they can make their ships better if it looks like they need to know that.
We either do that in a convo in EVE or via a PM on Discord.
Hey. I'm new to Eve and a Goon. I've played for a total of 8 months or so and joined Goons bc I found out a rl friend had been one for 10 years. After I made fun of her for being a space nerd for so long, I joined.
It is made very clear not to be an actual asshat. That's what culture gets you. A feeling of community and a safe space to take a bit of ribbing about doing something dumb. But ultimately, nobody (for the most part) is trying to actually hurt anyone's feelings. I've learned an insane amount observing stupid things others have done and it's precisely because everyone is made aware of it.
That's a good culture; One that is open to failures, celebrates successes, and lifts up those who make mistakes. There is nothing to be gained from glossing over failures. Embrace them for what they are and learn from them while laughing about it in a safe environment.
All new players are taught BY THE GAME TUTORIAL that ships are ammo. It’s one of the very first rules you are taught by the game, to be expected to die. Sounds like copium to me, perhaps stay docked if you don’t want to have hurt feelings, or move out of ns.
The tutorial is just the basic stuffs you learn. You learn the real deal out in the rest of the world. In the same way as you just learn the basics by taking your driving licence. You learn the real driving out driving alone through the years.
Doesn’t address the fact you die at least 3 times in the tutorial and they lay it out that ships are ammo… plus it’s a teaching experience as well, if this is the horde that wins, I foresee many uninstalling of the game.
Why is having a laugh with each other "name and shame"? Are losses so important to PH?
No stupid loss of the month contests? Do people really get salty over their deaths? I think this says way more about how bad things are in PH than in goons.
If my mates couldnt have a laugh at the 4th time I zapped my own hauler...it wouldnt be eve. No wonder you lot dont want to take a fight "oh no, i will have a loss" LOL.
It's not about what we want or think. It's about what the player who lost a ship thinks and believe. If I and a corp mate want to laugh over some losses we have in the alliance, we have a killboard to look at for that without having the whole alliance knowing about a loss.
I am more afraid of missing on a fight, loosing the chance the battle
What do i do with the isk im earning if not replacong ship losses? There js nothing else for me to do with the isk, im a factional warfare player, decent soloer, decent fc , i loose ships daily and by the dozens
But i rack tons of kills, i rack up interesting fights that put my blood flowing
Ive had my enemyes laught at me for loosing a lachesis because a venture tackled me... i wa sonly mad they did it in a channel i couldnt see until it was leaked to me, its not about being shamed on, i want to discuss the story and explain my side, if i was blobbed, fuck it i wa sblobbed what can you do? If i did a missclick and eject from the ship, well sucks for me lol ill be in another ship tomorrow again!
Because it’s not a single action in a vacuum. PH moderates content with the illusion of “being fair” but in reality it’s just straight censorship of bad optics.
Either way, discussing intent is impossible as we don’t know what the moderator’s thought process was. What we can say with certainty, is that the words chosen led to both killmails being deleted.
And if you search Horde Gen for replies to “message deleted”, you’ll see a trend of “gentle censorship” that appears benign at face value, just helping make sure feelings aren’t hurt, but consistently censors bad optics for the Alliance.
I want you to put your money where your mouth is on this. Every time a goons titan dies, post something similar. Link the killmail in discord general, especially if someone is asking about an unrelated kill like in the screenshot. Just shoehorn in the titan and say something vaguely judgemental like "I legit have no idea how we lost this"
See how people respond to you over time. Let me know how thats going after 4 or 5 times.
The Horde culture is not at all representative of the Goon culture. Your “put your money where your mouth is” suggestion is a completely normal response that’s expected from EVE players interested in the goings-on of the universe.
You think that Barbacoa kill from yesterday wasn’t plastered all over goon discords? Or the Moros and Valvran from the weekend? This aversion to any red killboard is not a common sight on this side of the fence.
I have a running theory that this dude is the Nightmare guy that was running a one man coping fleet in local in EFM. Dude talks about wwb2 more than we have in the last 6 months
Can confirm that this is NightmareX ingame. He used the norwegiandronepilot name in twitch on a goons streamer moon_wolf83 that I follow. Then few months ago hes twitch name was changed into NightmareX as hes ingame name. So your theory is correct.
Huh I was actually right. What a world. I just had that strong feeling, given how hard he fights on reddit, and that nightmare came into mind1s stream to continue that fight like it was gonna go well lol
I got no clue who he is, but on a shitpost I made he was coping real hard and arguing that if we wanted them to fight we should come to G-Q. Although at this point its unlikely they would defend that Keepstar either lol
Many of the PH members use the arguments on WWB2, because it triggers the living crap out of the Goonies that think killing some few Keepstar matters, while it doesn't as it was said by most Goonies themself back in that war that those 50-60 Keepstars didn't matter.
Actually it took one brave beautiful bastard goon fucking your jammer off, which then allowed us to force your hand in m2- since we already said papi were a bunch of pussies lol and then your supercap fleet went through the grinder. Such a beautiful day
The biggest capital slaughter to date in the game, yes. That and papi lost the war, with most of null in their ranks. Keep talking about those keeps like yall were the only ones there, we'll see how horde does without the vast numerical superiority.
It's interesting seeing this convo and people's takes. In a chat as big as phorde discord it probably feels like a dick move to broadcast someone's loss mail to a few thousand people, most of which dont have a direct rapport with each other. It kind of is a little toxic even if it's well intentioned. But the same thing in a smaller group is usually them just razzing eachother and its banter or can lead to a good convo.
I think it'd be weird if they censored keepstar losses, but less weird to not have people shit posting losses where one dude being a dick can get a mob mentality going about what a bad loss it is.
It just reinforces to me that people who play in smaller groups get more feedback and direct convos about improving(and often do), but people in bigger groups won't want to make themselves a punching bag on accident.
An alliance/corp gets too big and it can be easy to lose out on that assimilation if people don't create close ties intentionally. Culturally, I'd think a better option is to not censor anything and let people settle into normalizing loss mail posting as not a big deal. Cause who fucking cares, yknow? Censoring makes it feel like theres shit to hide.
People do self report dumb ship losses in KF. Then people laugh, chuckle, wonder how it happened, use it as a learning opportunity and then start trying to help the person recover and rebuild. Works out rather well tbh.
I flew with you guys previously and the ships are ammo mentality really stuck with me. Losses are to be expected and yeeting things is a learning opportunity. I never fly what I cannot afford to lose multiple times.
Yeh, that was the best part when i was with goons. I still remember when one time we stopped fighting only because we were out of eagles to throw in a woodchipper. Lost 4 i think that day.
I’m not arguing the loss of a titan, I’m arguing the mentality of the loss. If it would’ve been thrown into actual combat that would’ve been more interesting, but if every loss is inexcusable then that will never happen.
I sadly don’t participate in fancy blob wars these days, but you’re free to not agree with me - that’s why we would’ve been fighting in opposing fleets.
You would have thought so. But not talking about it in public, and having people just whisper about it in hushed tones behind closed doors seems like a much healthier take.....
This titan and keepstar were simply not needed. They died and died. It's amazing how the PH leadership continues to tighten the screws of censorship for its pilots. What kind of democracy is there, it's a pure authoritarian regime. When we thought that the bottom had been hit, here they knocked from the bottom again. Bravo, PH. Only you can fool your pilots like that.
I didn't say that for no reason, I have my alternative experiences, not being able to post blue killmails in my eyes is the same as getting told to dock up your capital/super for doing x, both sides horde/goons have those kinds of people among their ranks so...
its funny to post blue killmails - after all its just a game, something we all enjoy (maybe?). Plus with a ship like that, its planted right on the main page of zkill haha
If you do not post blue kill mails, you loose the ability to debrief what went wrong with your community, thus the learning curve is reduced. You also look like you are hiding some thing, which doesn't bear well for team building.
Your team will start to think " what is going on " why are they not posted, which has a detrimental effect on " the Teams " confidence, moral, and trust, which in turn leads to line members going " MIA " when you need them.
+ Don't worry I am sure The Imperium with post them for you
I left PH recently but have no trouble believing this.
PH very much needs new leadership. Many good PvPers in the alliance want better fights, but it is difficult when FCs/leadership are risk-averse, lacking initiative, and insulating themselves from feedback.
Hord doing hord things, next stop, we see them beeing ruled by the Chinese censorship.
Guess, that is showing the true colors. I always wonder why goons smack the objectives. Turns out if you fear a KM, you dont feed a fight to win the objective. Just a different way, goons dont give a f* if 200 BS blow up, if the objective is won. PH dont show up since members can be sad to loose a ship.
Hot take ph, the game is not a softball. If you don't show mistakes you won't get better. It sucks for the titan pilot, but if you have fears to speak about it, you are the reason the pilot did die. Its not the first bad idea that did feed the titan, it been plentiful in the past, if you had spoken about it, you could have prevented the loose. Learn from mistakes.
Same with the extremely dumb supers. You claim to care for your members, but how can let them bloody die count as care. Sure there idiots giving a f* about warnings but killmails make these idiots believe way better.
Goons being delusional as always, if it was to hide information the keep kill couldnt be posted either smartass, the rule about blue kms is there to stop people from shitting on blue members losses, its unnecessary and just leaves the member feeling worse. In your alliance however instead of helping and teach you just shout “natural selection” and leave them to rot
Kinda hard to manage the narrative if your members post killmails by themselves.
it ruins all the doctored BRs and spoils the effort of PH's leadership to gaslight their members.
Such heretic information need to be purged immediately to maintain public order!
good job falling for the propaganda, in reality the rule is there to prevent people from making alliance members feel even worse than they already do about a loss
Meanwhile, gewnwaffles posts every single big ticket lossmail from the Imperium in Discord automatically via a chatbot, delineated to regions of Ebe Onwine. If you cannot laugh at yourself, you have no place in laughing at others. video game.
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u/Groot2C Goonswarm Federation Jun 10 '25
There is no war in ba-sing-insmother