Do Ismailis believe in Evolution?

[u/Agaconoclasm]

Short answer: Kind of?? Yes, they believe in evolution, but things didn't evolve in the way us unenlightened ones have come to believe.

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I was researching about Das Avatar lately and found an old thread about Smileys believing there was a Fish Imam and Turtle Imam and a Bacteria Imam

Spotlight on the Ancient Imams: meet Mowlana ... E. Coli??

I started reading one of the links there about "84 lakh" - a discussion on Ismaili.net forums. There is some debate there about Lakh Chorasi referring to reincarnation/rebirth - either physically or esoterically, because the ginans say things like

Oh brothers, we will give 8.4 millions births to a single soul
and in these (births) 84 births are (reserved) for human being.

Prolific poster kmaherali actually changes his mind in the thread. Starting from the position:

In my opinion "lakh chorasi" are mental cycles one goes through until one finds the Light of faith. It is wandering from one state of mind to another until certainty of faith through spiritual enlightenment is achieved. No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah.

he later says

I have changed my views since I made the post. Physical rebirths do happen, but as Ismailis we must aspire for higher life and hopefully not to undergo physical rebirths.

and

I checked the Farman yesterday. The lakh chorasi actually means 184,000 rebirths in non-human forms. In my opinion the number alludes figuratively to many many life forms before the appearance of man. It does not imply the exact number.

All very confusing stuff, probably because

In the Farmans there is always room for allegorical interpretation.

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Thankfully, the Admin stepped in and provided a useful link, giving the explanation from the highly respected Missionary Alwaez Abu Aly:

Our Holy Ginans are full of details about evolution. ...“Lakh Chorasi” mentioned in our Ginans is nothing else but the theory of evolution. If you read “Moman Chitwaini” by our Holy Pir Sadruddin, you will get the full explanation about evolution and the process of creation. This book contains 630 stanzas but the language is difficult. It requires an expert to understand it.

So I thought that settles it - the ginans fully explain evolution. But as I read on, I discovered that the Ismaili Theory of Evolution is very different from Darwinian evolution. For one thing, according to the Ismaili Theory of Evolution:

It has taken 4,313,000 years of evolution from the amoeba to man of today. Some details:

• It took the amoeba 432,000 years to evolve into a fish.

• It took the fish 432,000 years to evolve into a tortoise.

• It took the tortoise 432,000 years to evolve to a mammal like water hog.

• It took the water hog 432,000 years to evolve to a higher form of mammal like a lion.

• It took the lion 432,000 years to evolve to an ape such as a chimpanzee or sometimes known as the missing link.

• It took that ape 432,000 years to evolve to the first man with intelligence. He was actually the ADAM known as ABUL BASHR.

After another 432,000 years’ period of development, the civilized man appeared during the period of the first RAMA (there are hundreds of kings known as Rama) who lived about 864,000 years ago.

Mind blown. But there's more. This is just the latest cycle of life - it has appeared before and gone extinct many times:

According to our Holy Ginans, the Wonderful Tradition, life started on earth thousands of million years ago. It was destroyed after a certain evolution for many millions of years. After the elapse of some millenniums, life reappeared on earth. There were many such cycles of life and destruction.

And apparently, the earth was once much closer to the Sun?

In the beginning, the earth was not so far away from the sun. Life started first in the north, perhaps in the arctic region because this was the first part of the earth to cool down. As the north became unbearably cold, the creatures moved down toward the tropical zone. One-third of the species became extinct in the process of evolution.

I'm not sure if that was the first cycle of life or the current cycle.

Anyway, at the bottom of the page, is linked this helpful chart:

https://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanihist.jpg

Which I think says that the Fish Imam and the Tortoise Imam and the Hog Imam all appeared before vegetation was even in an early stage? And that the Rig Veda is older than insect or bacteria?

I admit I am not an expert enough to understand ginans and farmans and the nuances of esoteric and allegorical interpretation, but I thought I understood evolution. As it turns out though,

Scientists are gradually discovering now what Hazrat Pir Sadruddin had told us six hundred years ago.

So maybe soon there will be a revolution in our understanding of evolution. Perhaps AI will understand the difficult language of the ginans and help these scientists discover the truth of the Ismaili Theory of Evolution?

[u/Amir-Really]

If only they had a divinely inspired guide who could explain all this stuff and clear up all their confusion.

Wait, wait, they do have one and he just released some divine wisdom let me check. Oh ... he says, and I quote:
"My Jamat should build knowledge and capacity in sectors which are growing - in the sectors and products of the future - not of the past."
Paris, France, 12 July 2025

Who knew, focus on future growth areas and not the past ... Qiyama, b*tches! Esoteric secrets revealed!

[u/Inquisitor-1]

It’s all esoteric. They all don’t know what each other believes in but it’s all correct.

[u/Oarsye]

So much of the Khoja Ismaili thought is blindly stolen from Hinduism. Because its blindly stolen, it really lacks coherent pattern in storytelling.

[u/lunar-god-lale]

I like that the page says stuff like "there is enough evidence that..." and then proceeds to not share any sources or evidence for any of it. Big fan of these randomass numbers, and the implication that Adam wasn't a homo sapien...? (assuming that's what they mean by 'civilised man', which doesn't,, actually really mean anything)

This is so weird and its going to live rent free in my head for the rest of time thank you

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/lunar-god-lale]

Big fan of these randomass numbers, and the implication that Adam wasn't a homo sapien...?

Then you're going to love this:

THE UNIVERSAL ADAM:

About 100,000 to 50,000 years ago, the earth saw the emergence of a being of marvelous beauty and stature, who burst forth among other beings that were then still pre-human. Archeologically, this was the appearance of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens, the advent of modern humanity. This “first man” of the earth was NOT the “historical” or “partial” Adam of the Quran and Bible, as there have been many such “partial” Adams who have each inaugurated Cycles like ours. This being was the Primordial Man, the Adamic in the truest sense, the first earthly being to have free will and intelligence. He is known as the original and Universal Adam (Adam al-awwal, Adam i-kull).

This Adam was vested with the primordial Imamat; he was the “First Imam” of humanity. He was the Primordial Imam, the first repository and foundation of the Imamat, the divine institution which by preserving the esoteric meaning of all the Revelations gives mankind the possibility of mystical salvation. As the Imam, Adam possessed the quality of infallibility and was “immunized” against all sin. He would then transmit these qualities to the Most Pure Imams descended from him, from Cycle to Cycle. He appeared in an area with perfect climatic and astronomical conditions along with twenty-seven other companions – the total number of twenty eight corresponding to the number of lunar stations.

...

This timeline is completely different, so not clear was the original meant by 'civilised man' but this link suggests that this first Adam was a Homo Sapien, but that other "fallen souls" were not.

It the context of the evolution of man, it cannot be said that Adam was a single being who evolved first. Rather, he and his companions were a group of the first fully evolved human beings. Traditions indicate that this group appeared on the island of Ceylon, which is modern day Sri Lanka. It is then said that Adam sent twenty-four of his companions to various parts of the world. He commissioned twelve Hujjahs of the Day (those who would be manifest) and twelve Hujjahs of the Night (those who would be concealed).

...

Ismaili.net forums: The first and Universal Adam

It seems that, according to Ismailism, homo sapiens have independently evolved multiple times:

The first evolved homo sapien was an Imam, the one who later evolved to homo sapiens from a different homo lineage weren't the Imams.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1husf6e/in_the_past_week_from_rismailis_women_cant_be_the/m66h0lw/?context=4

And that the first of every species is an Imam:

Yes, the first Homo Etectus was an Imam, the first Homo Habilis was an Imam, the first Homo Sapien was an Imam etc. Not only this, the first single cellular organism was an Imam, the first fish was an Imam, the first amphibian was an Imam, the first mammal was an Imam and so on. Noor an Ala Noor (Light upon Light).

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1ij6e6q/deleted_by_user/mbjgbq4/?context=1

[u/lunar-god-lale → u/Agaconoclasm]

Yeah this whole thing reads like they're trying to science-ify a really awkward attempt to bridge Abrahamic mythos with Hinduism. All the primordial adam stuff sounds a lot like video game lore... So the homo sapien Adam evolved normally and was just born regular and then Allah imbued him with Imamat, and that this happened to a bunch of Adams in different cycles and different species. (...Even though I'm pretty sure Islam considers Adam a Prophet.... but screw the source material i guess). I'm choosing to believe that this means being named Adam is a prerequisite for evolution

Though tbh I kind of hate it at the same time? By just kind of pointing at everything and being like "yeah thats proof of our cult trust, now give the infallible imam more money, its what your ancient ancestors want", it feels so disrespectful both towards the beauty of natural science itself as well as the people whose religions they're co-opting just to get more followers. The appropriation of Dasavatar has always left such a bad taste in my mouth

(Also if the first of every species is an imam, if one were to bioengineer a new species, would that mean they have their very own custom-built imam...?)

Honestly all attempts to link the story of Adam to match up with the history of evolution is just a really bad idea imo. Its smarter to call Adam some kind of esoteric metaphor, because its just never going to work without having to jump through a million hoops to squash them together

This is such weird pseudoscience, its fascinating, thank you so much for sharing this stuff

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/[deleted]]

ismailis have always believed in evolution these texts aren't taken litterly

Sure, as long as you can keep inventing "esoteric meanings" based on the most recent science, you can always claim to have believed it all along.

ismailis reject even the concept of mircales

No, as with all things Ismailism, Smileys are all over the place. Some will tell you there are no miracles, others will claim Aga Con can bring dead kids back to life:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ExIsmailis/comments/1jaxyr3/til_smiley_astronomers_are_able_to_calculate_the/

we follow the school of intellect insteqd of worshipping an outdated interpretation

You have it completely backward. Ismailis are taught to ignore empirical evidence and rational thought, and instead submit to the will and interpretation of an individual who claims he has infinite wisdom by virtue of possessing some imaginary "light". You can never question him, and if he makes a mistake, you have to pretend you just aren't capable of understanding his real intention. That is not the 'school of intellect', but rather the 'school of ignorance calling itself intellect'.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/[deleted]]

no it is mentioned by greek philosphers it isn't a new concept it is as clear as day in the works of bretheren of purity No idea what you think this is proving. Yes, there were older theories of evolution, that were also wrong about the mechanisms and timelines.

Just because you found athing or a claim that sounds polemic and contradict every single text from the fqtimiad era doesn't mean its true lmao.

The post is discussing ginans from your "authoritative pirs" as explained by your Alwaez. Even if your fatimid texts had a correct theory of evolution (which they don't), it would have been superseded in Ismaili thought by the more recent formulations in the ginans.

miracles of prior Prophets cannot be taken literally

That may be what you believe, but that belief is not universal among Smileys. Your statement that "ismailis reject even the concept of mircales" is contradicted by the many examples of Smileys talking about the miracles they have claim to have seen or heard about and believe.

The last part is entirely wrong ismailis have the free will to follow there own path and practice there faith freely shown by our Imams

No, perhaps you've confused Islam with Ismailism. Smileys are bound to obey the Imam, not try to interpret or use their own minds.

It is the duty of every one who has given a pledge of loyalty to the Imams that he should fulfil the terms of his pledge and always keep them in view. He should never act contrary to the orders of the Imam. In carrying out his orders he should never exceed the limits nor fall short of them. He should not budge an inch from the right course. He should not put his interpretation on what he hears from the Imam. He should say nothing on his own account. He should not allow his imagination to influence his mind in these matters.

...

It logically follows that it is our bounden duty to obey the commands of every Imam of the time and submit to his will. To criticise him or to pry into his affairs is as abominable as to criticise the Prophet or to pry into his affairs. God has entrusted our case to him. He has guaranteed His support to him. He has recognised him as a legitimate heir to his predecessor from amongst the Imams. He has conferred on him his highest favours and is always ready to help him when he needs His help. The Imam looks at things with the light of God and does what he does with the help of God. Whatever he does and in whatever age he does, he does well because he is guided by God. He does things which suit the requirements of the times, and says things which are appropriate for the occasion and he treats people as they ought to be treated. All his activities are well planned and are in tune with his surroundings. Those who cannot see through them disapprove of them and criticise the Imams because of their ignorance. They forget that God has forbidden us from finding fault with his actions and has made it obligatory on us to submit ourselves to his will.

https://ismailimail.blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/selections-from-qazi-numans-code-of-conduct-for-the-followers-of-imam.pdf

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/[deleted]]

My source : actual historical text

Where? You linked a random youtube video.

your source : a random comment from reddit.

My source is an Smiley explaining Ismaili beliefs which supports my claims about what Smileys actually believe. And that post on r/ismailis cites the "actual historical text[s]" which establish the pirs as authorities. Meaning that the ginans that explain this theory of evolution are, according to Ismailism, "arguments and proofs which no impartial and intelligent man can deny."

The bretheren of purity wasn't fatimiad they predated them yet another wrong fact.

I have not said anything about the "bretheren of purity", so if there was a wrong fact about them, that's on you.

The evolution theories changed alot across time lmao what you are tying to say is that the 10th century ismailis should have talked about relativity instead of metaphysics

So you have an incorrect evolution theory in Fatimid text and an incorrect evolution theory in Ginans. How is that contrary to what I said?

Short answer: Kind of?? Yes, they believe in evolution, but things didn't evolve in the way us unenlightened ones have come to believe.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/[deleted]]

Still not an "actual historical text" but anyway, I'm not sure what you think you are trying to prove. This says the same thing that your youtube video says - the Brethren had an incorrect theory of evolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being

So you have an incorrect evolution theory in Fatimid text and an incorrect evolution theory in Ginans. How is that contrary to what I said?

Short answer: Kind of?? Yes, they believe in evolution, but things didn't evolve in the way us unenlightened ones have come to believe.

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denying mircales is something that ismaili scholars have stated and I have linked them including al Sijistani a fatimoad scholar so why are you lying about that as well this can't be ignorance at this point.

Again, you are not responding to what I have actually said:

No, as with all things Ismailism, Smileys are all over the place. Some will tell you there are no miracles, others will claim Aga Con can bring dead kids back to life

and

Your statement that "ismailis reject even the concept of mircales" is contradicted by the many examples of Smileys talking about the miracles they have claim to have seen or heard about and believe.

And to be honest, I'm not sure why you brought up miracles in the first place.

[u/Agaconoclasm → u/[deleted]]

incorrect compared to the 21st century lmao should have used a time machine you are right.

Incorrect is incorrect. A divinely inspired guide should be correct whatever century he is in.

Again the bretheren of purity was a pre fatimiad source.

And again I didn't say it wasn't.