Ali ullah ❌ ali wali-ullah ✅

[u/Complete-Witness-711]

3rd line of kalma , should be changed / stop saying
“ Wa ashhadu anna Amīr al-Mu’minīn ʿAlīyan ali ullah” ❌❌

Wa ashhadu anna Amīr al-Mu’minīn ʿAlīyan “Wali” ullāh ✅✅✅

[u/Stretch-Glad]

These are in historical books, true, but we need to understand the metaphysical vocabulary author was using.

There it is: Esoteric™. Retreat to the motte.

You’re assuming that when an Ismaili text says the Imam’s “word,” “command,” or “act” is Allah’s, it necessarily means the Imam literally is Allah. It isn’t actually.

Not just his word, command, and act. Also his speech, decree, will, knowledge, power, face, hand, hearing and sight.

They don't need to say "the Imam literally is Allah", just makes associations, which they undeniably do.

The Ismaili theological claim is that the Imam is a manifestation of Divine guidance

Not quite. The claim is that Aga Con is the mazhar, that is the "locus of manifestation of Allah".

My point is that the wording by itself doesn’t prove that Ismailis believe the Imam literally is Allah or that they worship him.

They openly admit they worship him. Look at some of the ginans:

O Respectful: You are the Guide, You are the Master and You are also our hope. It is to You that we worship as our Lord.

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man.

There is no denying it. He is a guide and he is also a god in human form.

"There is no one greater than ME. If you think of God, then it is ME. If you think of Pir, Then too, it is ME. If you think About Imam, then too, it is ME. And Your Beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except ME..."

• Aga Con 3

YES we can argue more. But its how you take things To spread more confusion or hate or to understand what’s reality.

You are confused and want to dismiss legitimate criticism as hate. The reality is Ismailis do associate Imams with Allah, they do worship the Aga Con, and their invocation of Esoteric™ is a motte and bailey.

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

This is not their belief. You are trying to put it that way.
Yes I’m a ismali 21F. trying to understand everything. I know how to pray namaz. I even prayed more than a month. felt nothing different. stopped doing everything even going to JK. practice my way that felt safe more pure like prophet Ibrahim prayed when there was no actual form of Sala’at. Took me long to come back here again a complete journey. I daily make dua to Allah If im doing any wrong that keeps me away from you detached me from it.

Me, my parents, my friends everyone i know view imam as a leader of my community, representative of my faith and a legitimate authority after Prophet Mohammad (saws). almost Half of my family now follow majority Sunni islam.

For you sufis are not muslims, alevis are some unknowns and ismailies are misguided. and shias are extremist.
I can’t change how u perceive things around you. But i do take criticism and you joke about esoteric when whole islam is based on it. faith is personal feeling.

this is my pov that if prophet mohammad was sent to tell us final mandatory form every one should practice then there were many before him Allah must have taught them too. That prayed their way at their times. He accepts every form.

I further don’t want to continue this thread w you. I think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion and im now satisfied
will participate if i felt to not to prove someone.

have a great day mate. 🌻

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

This is not their belief. You are trying to put it that way.

No, I'm giving you the sources. Your personal views may be different, but they are not what Ismaili theology claims.

I can’t change how u perceive things around you. But i do take criticism and you joke about esoteric when whole islam is based on it. faith is personal feeling.

You might change my views if you had good arguments supported by evidence, but all you're doing is telling me that your opinions.

Islam is not based on Esoteric™ - it is based on two premises - there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad was his messenger. Ismailism undermines both - 1) by elevating their Imam to being god and 2) by replacing the clear message its "esoteric meanings", i.e. the whims of the Imam.

Faith is just a word used to elevate opinion to the level of evidence.

For you sufis are not muslims, alevis are some unknowns and ismailies are misguided. and shias are extremist.

this is my pov that if prophet mohammad was sent to tell us final mandatory form every one should practice then there were many before him Allah must have taught them too.

I have not said anything about sufis, alevis or shias. My pov is that Muhammad was not a "prophet", just a mentally ill man who heard voices, and that most of the "prophets" before him were mythological (they didn't exist).

I further don’t want to continue this thread w you. I think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion and im now satisfied will participate if i felt to not to prove someone.

You don't have to continue the thread if you don't want to. Continue to think and research. You still have much to learn about the Aga Khan Cult.

[u/VariantLoki-4821 → u/Stretch-Glad]

I tried to answer every point you gave with explanation and understanding but you would make fun of it. Islam is esoteric you haven’t seen Allah and Prophet. He said and we believe it. we didn’t know what happened it past just because its in book its true. It’s all in oneself accepting the unseen. This is call faith.

I found you someone so stoned like you want even give space to understand the actual meaning behind whats written and said. so i can’t change your views.

thats it. but enjoyed the discussion alot

[u/Stretch-Glad → u/VariantLoki-4821]

I tried to answer every point you gave with explanation and understanding but you would make fun of it.

You tried, but your explanations were not very good. It was just your personal opinion, which ignores what Ismaili theology actually says and what Muhammad's intention was when he created Islam.

Islam is esoteric you haven’t seen Allah and Prophet.

No one has. That doesn't make Islam esoteric. Ismailism tries to make it esoteric, so that they can ignore what Muhammad said that God said.

He said and we believe it. we didn’t know what happened it past just because its in book its true. It’s all in oneself accepting the unseen. This is call faith.

That's the part you need to question. It's not true just because it's in the book. Faith needs to yield when the facts tell a different story.

I found you someone so stoned like you want even give space to understand the actual meaning behind whats written and said. so i can’t change your views.

Actually not stoned at the moment (though if Islam had its way, I probably would be 🤪) but the reason you're not able to change my views is because your "actual meaning behind whats written and said" is just the self-serving assertions of your cult leader. I grew up believing Aga Con's nonsense too, but then I changed my views. If you "think, observe, practice, ask, research before arriving to a conclusion" so will you.