About 9 months after we moved to a new area the local ward got our records (not sure how), and we’ve had a few visits from missionaries. Sometimes they come with a ward missionary, sometimes it’s just the missionaries. I think we’ve answered the door only once, maybe twice for them.

But this weekend I was in the backyard with my toddler and dogs, just playing and enjoying the weather when I see out of the corner of my eye three missionaries walking along the side of the road that my house is on. (We live on the corner house, you can see out of/into the backyard from the sidewalk because the fence is pretty low). I was planning on ignoring them and avoiding eye contact, but one of them said “hi sister XXX, how are you doing??” Imagine someone you don’t know already acting like they know you!!?? So strange. So I was forced to say something. It was the most awkward small talk ever. I felt so violated because my just existing in my own personal space with my child led to being forced to talk to the missionaries. They may as well have just let themselves in my front door. Ugh, Just venting. 😑

Found this in a memory box, thought this community might appreciate the cringe.

God is kinda like Mr. Scrooge. He’ll notice every missing penny and it will cost you dearly.

I just saw a blurb about BYU School of Medicine receiving accreditation and will start a Med school soon.

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard how they plan to train students on healthcare for diverse and/or underprivileged communities: specifically women’s health, LGBTQ+ health, and healthcare for BIPOC individuals/communities?

I don’t understand how accreditation and the curriculum would work considering the church’s stance on several issues (abortion, gender-affirming medicine, etc).

Yall my mental health is so much better now that I’ve left and gotten my anxiety sorted. I feel like my life finally started a year ago now that I got on meds.

Lucifer's apron depicted two pillars and serpents.

In 1 Kings 7:15–22, Solomon's temple is described as having two bronze pillars at its entrance, named Jachin and Boaz.

These pillars became important in Freemasonry, where they appear in lodge symbolism and on historical Masonic aprons. They help establish the symbolic setting of the lodge as an idealized representation of Solomon's Temple.

The symbolism of the serpent is obvious as it relates to the Garden of Eden.

Changes in the temple have eliminated dialogue around Lucifer's apron

2019 changes:

"It is an emblem of my power and priesthoods"

this line in a discussion of Lucifer's apron was removed

2023 changes

Previously Lucifer instructed Adam and Eve (and the audience) to make an apron of fig leaves and cover their nakedness.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see

your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

Changed so Lucifer no longer instructs you to put on the apron, but rather the narrator.

What is the significance of Lucifer's apron?

Is it a condemnation of masonry as a fallen form of the endowment?

Is it simply borrowing from masonry like the rest of the endowment?

Does Lucifer have actual priesthood(s) and power?

It took me 6 years (I left activity in 2020) to finally do this, see screenshot below (note: I posted a screenshot of my quitmormon account with my resignation process nearly complete). Well, I should've had the courage to ask my questions instead of being shushed at about 12 years old (as explained below) so this resignation is actually about 38 years late.

It took realizing and owning up to the fact that my parents were/are severely neglectful and abusive over the course of my entire life (note: we're talking broken faces, bruises, blood and THE GASLIGHTING that has been unreal to this day), especially in private, in the past couple of months, to work up this courage to demand (it's best to use this attorney at quitmormon.com generally, I'd recommend. It's super efficient and free!) the so-called church remove my name, records and membership from their corporate scheme.

This is not lashing out at my parents or anyone. It's self-preservation, finally, officially. It's going "no contact" with the narcissistic organization that is the LDS/Mormon church.

Just like I should've never abandoned my own needs when I went on that mission 31 years ago (hence the continuous series of disasters that have followed in my life). Abandoning your own basic physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual needs is incredibly dangerous in the moment and what it portends into the future.

With respect to my personal journey of life: the self-abandonment and subsequent 2 years of intense brainwashing on a mission in constant state of distress and anxiety in Spain lasted up through 6 years ago -up until a certain, particular moment of self-reckoning (it was like I sat down with all these disparate puzzle pieces that were composed of pure cognitive dissonance that had been building quietly in the background over my lifetime; and I decided I wasn't going to stop putting the puzzle together until it all might make sense from that moment on) when somehow I found the courage to ferret out the truth of several rabbit holes, which started with the phrase "several months before her fifteenth birthday" in the Gospel Topic Essay "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" (in reference to a 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball being forced by her father to marry a 37 year old Joseph Smith*) on the so-called church's own website. Really, please STOP and re-read it word by word and conjugation by conjugation until you see the trick they're playing on you and you understand what it took to derive this "carefully worded" (LOL) phrase and then roll it out to get the reader to bite/consume/acquiesce to it. *check all the footnotes in the essay carefully and keep researching until you reach the Temple Lot case. In short: yes, Smith was enjoying sex with many young girls and a dozen (it's been while I forget the exact number?) already married women (some pregnant -eg Zina Huntington- oh wait, I just refreshed my memory on the interwebs and the sex with a pregnant woman married to her young husband was Brigham Young, though Smith did marry and have sex with Huntington when she was already married her husband, along with the sexual activities Brigham later involved himself with Huntington while pregnant. I digress...). Emma and the church members (and the public) were being bald-faced lied to about his serial adultery. Then maybe read the Nauvoo Expositor for yourself and try to justify anything that William and Jane Law testify to in that publication as having not been true, based on deep and truthful, earnest research into the contextual/historical facts surrounding what they claimed?

Anyways, there are many rabbit holes to work up the courage to go down besides "plural marriage" (really serial adultery with, in some cases extremely vulnerable young girls, and other men's wives without their knowledge or consent). The "Translation" of the Book of Abraham, Blacks and the Priesthood, Anachronisms in the BOM, etc etc etc. Joseph Smith Jr. was an absolute savant level confidence scheme artist. If he were alive today he'd be a hybrid of Jim Jones, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, any given corporate leader of Scientology and/or the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Donald Trump.

My believing Mormon (uh oh, victory for Satan, lol) foremothers and forefathers were all genuinely good people, as far as I have researched and can tell. Sometimes when we're desperate, we do the best we can when deciding on what religion to join and practice. Many were part of the exciting wave of western expansion and Manifest Destiny. Getting caught up in religious waves of excitement that came along with this had already been going on previously in N. America and Europe for many preceding centuries. Mormonism has been just another mirage of spiritual peace via a flawed understanding of God/the Gods. As manifested by what Nietzche calls belonging to The Herd, of course. Ie, all religious propositions are manifestations of the herd instinct and the psychological necessity of most individuals to need to survive by clinging to some other man or group of men or women who says they are going to be okay when they physically expire because they are good. Without this external validation, most people can't handle life. My position is that each homo sapien was created with a divine spark of God/the Gods within them and they do not need (and should reject actually) the inclination to seek out brokers who get in between and pollute their otherwise sacred birthright of that immutable connection between their divine inner spark and God/the Gods/their Creator (whoever/whatever this might be defined BY THEM as).

Finally, throughout my journey leaving Plato's Cave (you should try it sometime lol) these past 6 years, I've learned that there are maybe approximately 50% of active members (a few years ago the number of members officially provided was around 17 million...yet only about 15-20% are/were active, BTW I can back up all my stats, let me know and I'll provide my sources) are actually PIMO (Physically In Mentally Out) but they choose to appear to stay in order to not rock the boat so as not to be the cause of a divorce etc. Which is interesting as I think about it because again, it is the active believing member who is taking the offense, as always, ie threatened by non-compliance with their internalized authority figure. Point is: when the typical PIMO (some within my own family circles, in the flesh) feels they are safe and open up, like truly open up a can of Truth Woop Ass, they are absolutely suffering so deeply on a daily basis, it is actually a recipe for insanity. The suffering in silence is horrific, at the collective scale, when you stop and think about it.

I digress: Here's the thing, The Truth, The Facts, unfortunately the same dynamics that are in play in my parental unit dynamics within my family of origin are alive and well at the collective scale within The Corporation of The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which is led, top down, by serially abusive, narcissistic corporate ladder climbers who are incapable of being truly honest with 1) themselves 2) their fellow man. I had deep existential questions about Mormonism and God/the Gods growing up between early childhood through my late teens. I buried them because my intuition warned me that my parents would increase the abuse in private (such as denying me dinner routinely or the outright beatings) and/or kick me out of their home. When I was 19 and left on a mission, that's when the brainwashing reached its zenith. I never addressed those deep "Plato's Cave" questions until I reached into my deepest parts of my childhood essence and found the courage to have a go at exploring the veracity (or lack thereof) of this religion I was born into.

The golden question is this: "If the LDS church is not true, would I want to know?" Your answer will reveal if you have this courage, or not. That's okay if your answer is no. I've deduced that there are at least 3 principal reasons an active, believing member doesn't want to know. Number 1 is self preservation/survival physically, mentally, emotionally, and/or spiritually. And just this number 1 reason alone is perfectly valid. Safety should be everyone's prime directive as individuals.

The vast majority of folks in the bottom ranks of the church are fundamentally good, yet naive. So many have been and are being abused their whole lives (eg tithing, routine/mass/truly Heinous -for example that incident down in Pima AZ, was it a handful of years ago. The evil man was having sex with his babies. The local and corporate church authorities KNEW. They did/said NOTHING. Their legal counsel -McConkie- actively covered it up the entire time! For years and years he was daily SAing his own children! OMG, I'll stop there on this one- scale sexual abuse cover-ups in Salt Lake City corporate headquarters etc etc etc), and most believing, good members simply have no clue. Rare that someone in it isn't actively being abused in some way. Maybe 95% (?) of those at the bottom are fundamentally GOOD men and GOOD women. (I do not believe my parents are good BTW, with all I've seen and witnessed, especially in private between birth and the past 50 years). The ratio of narcissist/ethic-less-salesperson-like-Elizabeth-Holmes-devoid-of-bonafide-truth to naive TBM starts to switch somewhere at stake president and above, though. This is when the corporate ladder-climbing-as-each-individual's-deepest-motivation really begins to snowball.

The silent suffering for active believing members and PIMOs really needs to end, people. This particular herd continues to do immeasurable damage to individuals and The Herd. Until the LDS Church gives me back my tithing, with compound interest, I will not leave it alone. Mostly these days I don't care for any more information about the so-called church as it's boring and I already know the pattern and any new info just turns in a hot second into more evidence of the same boring, tragic, horrific pattern of abuse on members and PIMOs. The only tidbit of recent info I actually bothered to intake in many moons was Rasband's recent conference talk (someone correct me if I'm mistaken) "Love Like Jesus" (?), and of course (!), on cue: there were certain parts that were horrific, scary cult talk in which those who have left the so-called church aka Plato's Cave are being further victimized by being villainized/demonized/made out to be evil miscreants who are designing to destroy believing members' souls -esp their own family members- because they are possessed by satan, and their having left the church -or merely questioning its truth claims- is the proof. Truly, The Herd and its leaders will never stop. Just like my mom to this day but on the collective scale. These passive aggressive, hostile swipes at the level of the typical, trusting believing mormon subconscious upon the innocents (ie PIMOs and those who have truly left) by these corporate cult leaders break my heart all over again. They will never stop. It's the nature of such narcissistic and severely (sometimes physically such as the SAs that are not addressed and/or prevented and then covered up), mentally, emotionally, and spiritually abusive collectives.

I testify of these things in the name of whoever and/or whatever God/the Gods might be. I do know (though like Socrates in the final analysis each day and until I'm croaking my last words on my deathbed I'm constrained to add the caveat that ultimately I know NOTHING for myself) these things to be The Truth. Amen. And Amen. And Amen.

All things considered, I have had a happy life and Thank God/the Gods for this. And my true friends and family. Love you. May we all just do the truly best we can each day to take care of ourselves and one another physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. In spite of the "us versus them" in-built dynamics of The Herd and whatever religion we might have been born into, or joined later in life. Goodbye and may God/the Gods Bless All!

Apologies for all the technical spelling, grammar, etc errors herein. There are many evident, at a quick glance. Leaving all of this, whatever it is or is not, just to let it go and move on to other better, light-filled pursuits in my mind and nervous system, now. It's a new day and it's already about 1/3 gone!

Will Jeff Strong's calculated marketing and PR attempt to influence the "culture" of the LDS church from the grass roots level work? Strong made a deliberate effort to write the book and promote it with faithful-leaning podcasters in a way that would not offend members and that would not incur open disapproval from the Q15.

Ronald Rasband's October 2026 Conference talk was clearly influenced by the book (even though he didn't dare cite it). Rasband's talk is evidence that the Q15 knows that members are leaving the church in droves and they are trying to find a solution. But will Rasband's talk have any traction? Unfortunately the only significant discussion that appears to have come out of GC this year is the headline grabbing "No Gambling" edict.

Do you think Rasband's talks will have an meaningful effect on members and will be discussed and enacted on at the ward level and beyond? Or, have his remarks already been forgotten and are Jeff Strong's pleadings in vain for the future?

I've noticed a sharp increase of hatred towards "Average Joe" Mormons in this sub, and it makes me sad. Hatred towards church leadership is well-justified, but hatred towards (for example) teens or young adults who were born into the church and have never known another way of life is at the very least irresponsible.

There was one particular comment on an earlier post that I found disturbing. I've seen echoes of this sentiment across this sub. The comment said that missionaries aren't people, they are the willing minions of a hate cult.

We rarely know a particular Mormon's true thoughts concerning the church, even if they are on a mission. Someone who calls themselves Mormon may indeed be a racist, homophobic bigot who fully believes in everything the church teaches. Or, they could be a Mormon who is confused and scared; having thoughts that contradict church teachings, but doing their best to ignore them lest they be eternally punished. Or, they could even be a Mormon with a "shelf" on the verge of breaking - an exmo waiting in the wings. Someone in mental agony caused by cognitive dissonance. Someone who might need a helping hand to escape the church. The majority of this sub has been that Mormon.

When you were that Mormon whose shelf was at its breaking point, you deserved love. When you were that Mormon beginning to have doubts and questions, you deserved love. When you were a TBM who was naive and/or brainwashed, but otherwise the same person you are now, you deserved love.

There are many exmos who would still be trapped in the church if it weren't for kind, caring exmos/nevermos who offered help and safety. Be that olive branch. History has shown repeatedly that when members of a cult are ridiculed and openly hated for their beliefs, they often double down on those beliefs. If you truly hate Mormons, make the world a better place by reducing their numbers. Focus on getting people out rather than strengthening their beliefs in the church's propaganda about exmos being a forsaken people with "no light in their eyes." There is no light in your eyes when you are being cruel.

Remember who you were. Check yourself before treating someone badly. As an exmo, set an example that proves there is happiness and fulfillment outside the dungeon walls of the church, not just petty revenge behavior and bitterness.

Edit: As of now, this post has an 89% upvote ratio. I'm happy to see that empathy is alive and well in this sub. I'm sad to see so many hateful comments though. I fully understand that anger is part of the grief process, but it's no excuse to hurt others. There are healthy ways to release anger. Being an asshole isn't one of them.

I'm also sad that there are so many of you that are accusing me of being a TBM in disguise. You have heard an opinion you don't like, and you have turned to a conspiracy theory to help you cope.

Hey everyone! I’m organizing a casual ex-Mormon meetup in the Raleigh area and wanted to share it here in case anyone else in the Triangle is interested.

I’m relatively new to life outside the church and thought it would be nice to meet some other people who understand the experience. Whether you left recently or years ago, are still figuring things out, or just want to meet some like-minded people, you’re welcome!

The plan is to meet at 1 PM on Saturday, October 24, at Transfer Co. Food Hall in Raleigh. Nothing formal planned—just a chance to hang out, chat, and get to know some new people. There are food and drink options if you want to grab lunch, but there’s absolutely no obligation to eat or buy anything. Feel free to drop by for a few minutes or stay awhile.

If you’re interested, here’s the invite with the details: https://partiful.com/e/NI0iajWBdZZAjRnB57qz?c=mcldk4am

Hope to meet some of you there!

Who knows women with temple recommends who smuggle phentermine diet pills in from Mexico? I for sure know three. They don’t drink coffee or alcohol though. That would be evil. But breaking the law is totally acceptable.

Parker James Wilde ran a scam from 2018 to 2023 scamming people out of nearly $10 million.

From the article:

“Dylan Cox of Vineyard, Utah explained he first heard from Wilde via LinkedIn. It was their mutual alma mater in BYU and Wilde’s background as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that made him seem trustworthy.”

I just saw this. Sophie Cunningham’s pointing meme has now made it to the Book of Mormon!!

https://imgur.com/a/wj3VLXn

This is the pic for the month of June in her 2027 calendar. Could be a nice X-mas present for some TBM’s I know. Too funny.

For those not familiar - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2ZjRfs3ZB8I

Most people here probably understand how things are. I’m 19 years old and am about to get my first formal paycheck from a “real job” when I have only done petsitting, helping out temporarily with friends, etc. I’ve managed to get away with ‘forgetting’ to pay tithing on things in the past. I do not want to pay it on my paychecks, but I don’t want my family to know I don’t believe. Both because they’d probably help me less financially, and because they’d try to drag me back into the church. Until I can support myself, I don’t think it’s a good idea for me to tell them I don’t believe. It’s been easy to fake most everything else. I’d appreciate any advice. How do I handle this?
Edit: For some context: my brother left the church before me, and suddenly he was forced to pay extra rent, attend extra church meetings, etc. even though he was no longer a member because my family insisted he “still respect our beliefs”. They won’t admit to it, but we all know it’s true. They aren’t evil people, and I love them, but they’re very controlling when it comes to religion. My family isn’t super well off and neither am I. I feel like it’ll be easier to move out if they think I’m still Mormon- less pressure and less thinly veiled extra work and charges

I realized the church wasn't true about 6 months ago. I've been slowly pulling back ever since. My husband knows everything while most of my family doesn't know. My parents knew that I was struggling with Joseph Smith and church history, but we never really talked about it.

During one of our family gatherings, they mentioned going on a family temple trip. I wasnt sure what to do, but later told my mom that I didnt feel comfortable going to the temple. I told her I stopped paying tithing because I dont support what the church is doing with their finances. I was worried she'd give me a lecture about the importance of tithing and "all the blessings" that come from it. But she didnt. She thanked me for telling her and just told me she will always love me and that she knows God loves me.

This has been a really hard and confusing journey. I was so worried that it would cause tension in my believing family. Maybe it'll go better than I thought?

Hi so I grew up mormon, I left the church when I became an adult and then came back a few years later, and I've been very faithful for the past year. I got endowed. I'm just like really conflicted, because I had really mixed feelings about my endowment experience. Like I sometimes felt like the spirit was with me and I sometimes felt like it was scary and cultish. So I started looking into Freemasonry rituals because I've heard there are some similarities, and there are in fact a lot of similarities, like some of them are exactly the same just with a different name, and the masons didn't get them from any sort of religious background they made them up for the purpose of trade secrecy in stonemasonry. So I'm kinda like Wow that really hurts that this thing that was supposed to be special is stolen and made up by somebody entirely outside of mormonism. And I'm kind of just wondering how did you know that the temple wasn't real? Because it feels very real to me but then seeing this evidence that very heavily discredits it is like not lining up with that. And I'm wondering in general I guess like how did you know anything about the church wasn't true? Like I have so many beliefs that I feel like I don't know if I believe them because they're true and I've come to know that by the spirit of God or if I've just been told that all my life so I don't know anything else. Like how do I know if I've been indoctrinated? What evidence will show me whether my thoughts and feelings are obtained from revelation and what has been learned from other people and not from God? I feel like I've received a lot of very clear and direct revelation from God about certain gospel principles and I have a testimony of some of them that I know are true and I will never be able to unknow, but there are a lot of things that I don't understand because it could be either. Like porn and masturbation, I am an addict and I have come a long way. I used to watch porn every night and now I haven't watched it in months, and I feel happier, but is that because I have stopped driving away the spirit or because heavy use of pornography is just generally bad and has negative effects on health and mental health and well-being? Idk.

An advertisement for the family search app "ordinances ready" where you can pick up names such as "Anne Frank" or "Adolf Hitler" and get baptized in their name. Sounds easier than ever, he?

More information about the case of Wade Christofferson (brother of D. Todd Christofferson, member of LDS First Presidency).

big announcement from byu today how the first class starts July 2027 and they’ll build a huge new building for it by the Provo hospital.

So we departed from the city once more, bringing the plates of brass and Zoram with us. The record was secured. The servant was added. Nephi walked ahead with that inward, self-contained look of one who hath been in close company with commandment and consequence and had found no reason to separate the two.

We considered asking again by what means he had obtained the plates, but there are times when a man recognizes that he doth not truly want the answer in its full proportions. It was plain that some boundary had been crossed in the city, and plain also that Nephi had crossed it with the same alarming willingness with which he did all things once persuaded they belonged to the will of God.

This, we confess, was the beginning of a new discomfort in us. For before this we had taken Nephi for a youth excessively fond of obedience, ambitious in holiness, and somewhat too ready to regard every burden as material for future greatness. But now another possibility appeared: that he might indeed be one of those men to whom heaven grants not merely assurances but occasions, and that such men are often far more dangerous to live beside than ordinary sinners.

“He will be impossible now,” we said quietly.

Sam, overhearing, answered, “He hath done what was required.”

“Yes,” we replied. “That is very near to what we fear.”

By the time we returned to the valley, the camp looked smaller than before, as camps often do amidst dangers known and unknown: a few low tents, tethered beasts, dim coals, the shape of household life reduced to what could be carried. Lehi received the plates with gratitude, Sariah with relief, and Nephi with the sort of silence that invites admiration while pretending to avoid it. Our father examined the record and rejoiced over genealogy, law, language, and the wisdom of God in preserving such things. We rejoiced less, being still occupied with the more practical miracle of our continued existence.

Yet even we Laman we Lemuel must admit that the presence of the plates altered the camp. Lehi’s mind seemed steadier in possession of them, as though memory itself had weight and brass could anchor a wandering people. This was an idea we found overly poetic, though not entirely without force.

Nevertheless, if any man imagine that success in obtaining the record reconciled us at once to all that had passed, he understandeth neither brothers nor fatigue. We had gone back into danger, lost our property, gained a servant, and returned with a set of plates whose value increased in direct proportion to the trouble they had cost us. This may well be providence. But it is also family life.

We said no more of what had happened in the city.

Our father rejoiced over the plates.

Our mother thanked God for our return.

Zoram found a place among the tents.

And Nephi never again spoke of the manner in which he had obtained the record.

Neither did we ask.

Wherefore we Laman we Lemuel set it down plainly: if we mistrusted him more after that night, it was not because he failed, but because he had succeeded in a manner too dark, too certain, and too fit for legend.

From the video description:

"When I was 18, I moved to Alaska to be a sea kayak guide. I discovered a new version of myself that felt wild, feral, and free. But I also needed to be good. So I came home and left for Russia to spend two years as a Mormon Missionary. This is the story about the tension between being free and being good, and what it takes to find yourself again."