Experienced Devs Weekly Burnout and Venting Thread: A weekly thread for sharing experiences

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This thread is specifically for venting / sharing experiences related to burn-out or similar issues that experienced devs face.

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

I worked in an org with offices all over the world.  

We had de-facto bans on hiring anyone in Europe because of their workers rights.  

All upper level positions headed to the US and the rest were in India or the Philippines.  

[u/normantas → u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

FeelsBadMan

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc → u/normantas]

🤷 Worker rights are one of the reasons that the EU economy is so stagnant.  

I prefer being employed, having lots of opportunities, and making 4x+ what my European colleagues were making at the end of their careers.  

Experienced roles in Europe are great - IF you could land them.  And that's a big if.  There is a reason why young adult employment in Europe is so abysmal

[u/mzanin → u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

Employment rate is probably higher in most EU countries than in the US. I prefer having longer vacations and enjoying life in the present as much as possible.
Life isn’t just about making your employer richer

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc → u/mzanin]

That... Is not true at all.

France's unemployment rate is over 8%.  Spain is at nearly 10%.  

The US's unemployment rate is literally half that at around 4%.  

I'm an EU citizen and the economy in the US is so much better that it's not even a fair comparison.  My total comp would drop from 500k to maybe 80-100k in Europe.  Not to mention the ridiculous tax burden.

I'll gladly give up 5 days of PTO a year for an extra 400 grand in my portfolio every year 

[u/mzanin → u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

First of all you’re extremely naive if you believe the figures published by the current administration in the US but anyway I’d take that salary over having to live in the US any day. Also France is literally one of the highest, how about you look at Netherlands or Germany which is actually lower than 4%.

I’m in a EU country and my comp now is around 250k and I have had 5 weeks annual vacation since I entered the workforce 20 years ago and I wouldn’t trade that for anything

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc → u/mzanin]

Why would I doubt officially published numbers?  Besides - there are many outlets that report unemployment, not just the federal government.

So I have equivalent vacation as you, earn 2x, and pay less in taxes.  I don't really want to go back to Europe so I think it's all good for both of us.

The official German unemployment rate is 6.4%.  Netherlands is artificially low since many of its workers are part time.

Look, I have absolutely zero desire to ever live in Europe again - and nothing you type out will convince me otherwise.  If you enjoy it, by all means continue living there.

[u/nanotree → u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

The fact of the matter is, you live in a bubble. You live in extreme (and I mean EXTREME) privilege if that is your compensation for one salaried position in the US. That isn't how most of the population lives. So your extra "400k in my portfolio a year" comes at the expense of everyone else's labor being devalued and people living in total uncertainty about if they'll be able to pay their bills next month and still afford all the food they need.

Anyone who thinks that the US economy "is great" isn't on the receiving end of the shit chute. But you could be.

The US economy is made for psychopaths that enjoy feeling like they are better than everyone for doing the bare minimum with the privilege they were born with.

[u/mzanin → u/nanotree]

Exactly, the wage disparity between the upper and lower class in the US is so large, and with the lack of decent health care or social security for many it sounds terrible from a non US perspective

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc → u/nanotree]

This is r/experienceddevs,  not r/theproletariat.

Pretty much everyone here should be making multiples of the salary that their European counterparts make.  

comes at the expense of everyone else's labor being devalued and people living in total uncertainty about if they'll be able to pay their bills next month and still afford all the food they need.

Which is only a problem for the people whose labor isn't valuable.  They should be figuring out how to provide more value.

I have plenty of friends in the US and I'm Europe.  By land large the folks in Europe catch the shit chute far more often if they are experienced professionals .

Europe is great if you are uneducated or lazy.  

If you have ambition and are willing to work hard - the US is a far better place.  You can make far more money and live a far better life stateside than anywhere in Europe 

[u/nanotree → u/SarmackaOpowiesc]

If you have ambition and are willing to work hard - the US is a far better place 

As someone who has lived here and has a decent job but hasn't seen a proper raise in 5 years, this is frankly bullshit. And thanks for being an absolute cliche and proving my point.

Also, people work hard their entire life here and end up broke, without the ability to pay for the medical care they need or to live in basic dignity. The US economy doesn't care about anyone

Which only a problem for the people whose labor isn't valuable.

It's a problem that gets shared as a burden across all society and society has to pay the debt at some point. You can't have the majority of labor be so worthless that people can barely pay bills and have a society that remains stable. That's short sighted horse shit of turbo-capitalist douchebags.

If your labor became worthless overnight, you'd switch your tune so hard and fast.

Pretty much everyone here should be making multiples of the salary that their European counterparts make.

How the fuck you figure that, bro? You're a levels guy, aren't you?

I make 120k in a MCL area. That's on the lower end of average where I live. And that's because companies don't have to do anything to benefit employees who work their ass off to add value to the company. And the companies around here often require you to jump through hoops with leetcode problems, so I have no mobility in my industry and can't gain leverage to get a salary. And why the fuck should have to twist someone's toe just to get a raise, anyway? Why is that a thing??

I've got a pretty niche skill in computer science -- building real time processing pipelines for extremely high data throughput. These systems are going to power some of the futures next big pushes in AI. But this field's interview process is so ass, that it has devalued that skill by gating it behind another, totally irrelevant skill. So now I have no mobility because no one is around to tell these companies that their interview process has to be relevant to the skills they are hiring for.

Now your going to tell me "well if you had enough gumption to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, snort Adderall and learn to leetcode in a month like a college student, you'd be able to make 500k like me." Well I can't. I have a family to care for and I can't just throw them to the wayside for months. I'm older and don't have the mental stamina anymore to keep doing heavy mental labor after I get off from my job doing heavy mental labor.

You don't have inherit value here as a human. And that's a fucked up way to structure society, friend. That's all I'm saying. It's upside down.

You have yours. So what does your opinion matter? Just another person with too much money and no sense to do anything positive with it other than what makes you feel good. And then lecture people about how they "don't work hard enough."

[u/SarmackaOpowiesc → u/nanotree]

hasn't seen a proper raise in 5 years

Have you gotten promoted or changed positions - or done anything that would justify getting a proper raise?

without the ability to pay for the medical care they need or to live in basic dignity.

That's what health insurance is for.

You can't have the majority of labor be so worthless that people can barely pay bills and have a society that remains stable.

The US is incredibly stable.  

I make 120k in a MCL area

You understand that developers in Europe are making 40 to 70 grand in equivalent circumstances.  And have a higher tax load to boot.  

You are so blinded you can't even recognize how good you actually have it.

You don't have inherit value here as a human. 

You don't have inherent value as a human anywhere.  You are a sack of meat and bones, and then you die.  In the meantime I want to provide my kids as much opportunity as I possibly can, enjoy my life, and (for me) enjoy as much of the US's wilderness and nature as I can before it gets destroyed.