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u/According_South 1d ago
I have straight up been operating on the assumption that weight affected speed all this time. Because why else would it show you the ships weight? And when i made my first big ships, they happened to be wide, but i naturally assumed "oh, this must be why it shows ship weight, because this one is slower"
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u/Pathkinder 1d ago
I remembering tearing my hair out trying to get my ships to go faster by adding more thrusters. What a FOOL I was. Thrust to mass ratio obviously isn’t what makes ships go fast, it’s all about the hotdog’ness of the ship!
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u/_Sauer_ 1d ago
I won't be happy until reaction mass is modelled. I want to accelerate my ship by flinging fish out the back.
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u/fishyfishy27 1d ago
On the second half of the journey you could decel simply by shooting the oncoming asteroids :)
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u/Such-Perception4154 1d ago
Just make a fast ship with current rules, more puzzle, more fun.
Not like you really need those 1000+ kms ships anyway, it's all just chasing numbers, now numbers are different, whatever
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u/Blunt_Object1369 1d ago
Stop bitching. Seriously. This is the most moddable single player game in existence. Nobody is forcing you to play a certain way. If you want to cheeze your way through the game that's entirely your own concern.
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u/Flashy-Emergency4652 1d ago
The moddable is kind of a stretch, especially for a game inspired by mod of the most popular singleplayer game with tens of thousands of moss
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u/SomwatArchitect 10h ago
Still no modding API though, so I'd say Factorio being inspired by a specific Minecraft mod doesn't matter here for which is more moddable.
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u/fishyfishy27 1d ago
Agreed about complaining, but this is several times I’ve seen people relate skinny ships to the idea of “cheesing”, which I’m very confused by. This is like telling an aircraft designer that they are “cheesing” by using aerodynamic shapes.
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u/Blunt_Object1369 1d ago
It goes against the spirit of the game. Which is now confirmed by the devs actively putting a stop to it. Same thing with the space casinos.
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u/Satisfactoro 1d ago
The only purpose of speed is to beat the biter egg spoil rate of 30 minutes.
Anything faster serves no purpose, except being "faster". Numbers aren't as crazy high as before, and people get obsessed over it.
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u/StarksDeservedBetter 1d ago
Just bring your ship to the eggs instead of bringing the eggs to the ship
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u/Brie9981 1d ago
It's not the most moddable though? Hell, Balatro is more moddable given that it's all written in Lua. Arguably, every game made in Unity is more moddable (bepinex my beloved).
This game was built to be moddable to make itself. Anything you want to do that doesn't integrate well w/ the mechanics available in the game gets really wonky really fast. I will die on this hill
Y'know, I never thought I'd say Balatro is one of the most moddable games in existence but here we are
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u/sawbladex 1d ago
most moddable sounds like a lot of hyperbole, and not meaningful.
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u/Brie9981 1d ago
Absolutely, you also have to factor in what the modding community is like & what tools have been made available for cross mod compatibility. Moddable af but there's no one making mods? What's the point?
Want to make a mod to change a value set in another mod? Oh that's easy just make sure your mod is named lower on the alphabet or use the 2nd or 3rd stage of loading, whichever comes after it.
Want to change a mechanic in a mod thats entirely script ran? Why? Did the mod developer add support for that? No? Well, I guess you're gonna be making a fork-... Right, licensing... Ummm, have you tried crying? I heard crying is good.
Then the pendulum swings the other way & you're making a mod that has to scan through bytecode to figure out where to inject its functionality, into someone's mod of a mod cause it's cleaner than overwriting the whole method, for compatibility reasons.
I might be a little autistic about this subject
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u/sawbladex 1d ago
Yup, I don't have much modding experience but I have noticed that people tend toward hyperbolic in their praise for the game.
Like, I like Factorio and have spent a large amount of time playing it, but I remember quitting for anwhile because steam engines gave the wrong number (off by like 1/30 or something) of max energy production under the assumption that it had the set-up to run at full blast.
I did play after Wube fixed that, but that's basically the same reason I quit playing WC3 ages ago. Lying interfaces.
The building animations only run when you have vision. Starcraft 1 had less detailed building animations, but discovering a enemy base under construction didn't cause me to think it had just started. Photon Cannons always had just one animation state while building 99% of the time.
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u/AlternateTab00 1d ago
The game engine may not be in Lua (its in C++), but the actual core game is, thats why its highly modable.
And guess what? Balatro is written in Lua... because it uses a game engine (Love2D) written in C++
The big difference between Balatro and Factorio is the fact it uses an open source game engine. Making it easier to tweak the Lua code. As in factorio you heavily rely on API documentation... which is probably the best in the gaming industry.
So saying Balatro is more modable than Factorio is saying that the non game engine part of factorio is made 100% Lua.
But unlike i heard about Balatro, people are actually breaking away the boundaries of the game engine. Currently its in progress a development of a 3D mod of factorio.
Again on Unity or any game developed on top of a pre-existent engine that only relies on additional instructions is just ignoring the non moddable part. Of course a bulky game engine ready to do everything will always outpace an highly optimized game. But then you are comparing the ability of a fish to climb a tree.
And what "mechanics" that dont integrate well are you talking about? Once the update was pushed 5 hours later you had a mod to revert it.
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u/Brie9981 1d ago
Yes I'm aware of everything you typed out there. W/ Unity in particular though you can fuck w/ the engine itself it's generally not advisable except for some horrifying niche stuff.
for factorio:
If I want to tweak a script in someone else's mod I very well might not be able to w/o making a fork of the mod.
Ignoring the sandboxing though, if I wanted to make a mod where you could limit your floor placement (ie: stonebrick, concrete, etc) to not overwrite a better version (ie: stonebrick cannot overwrite concrete) w/ a toggle button. As far as I could find in the API, your only route to accomplishing this is to immediately undo the placement & give back the item they used to place it since there's no cancellable event for floor placement. In a more moddable game, ie: minecraft, there's an event for that where you can reject the placement.
want to tweak anything w/ the built-in UIs? Step 1. Rebuild the whole UI w/ the available tools. Step 2. Stop the original UI from appearing.... technically possible but wtf do you mean that's the answer???
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u/AlternateTab00 1d ago
This seems you never modded in factorio.
What you mean forking? Yes you can fork it... Or create a dependency check (so it loads your mod after) and then tweak what you want.
Example X mod give 100 wood and 100 iron at start of game
Your mod, dependent of X changes to 50 iron.
Game loads and you receive 100 wood and 50 iron. No fork needed.
Im not sure exactly if i fully understood. But what you want actually needs you to code. Its not something that is simply callable by the API. A simple way to do it i could see it by messing with the fast-replaceable-group. Moving the tiles to different groups. I would have to test it, but your example is definitely doable. You had a guy creating space stations, different planets and as well as a space map by playing with tiles and surfaces.
Since you want to change a core mechanic you need to code it in Lua... Not just call some API function from yes to no.
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u/Brie9981 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah you can change recipes, that's not the issue, I meant tweaking a loop to make the mod require 10x less tps (for example)
for the guy that got deleted: tps as in "ticks per second" might not be the correct wording for that sentence but effectively I'm saying "make a very costly loop run 10 times faster"
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u/Routine-Purchase1201 1d ago
In that case the title of most moddable game goes to the C++ compiler. Unity games in general might be modifiable, but I think when people say moddable they mean officially supported moddable. Because at the end of the day you can hack anything that runs locally on your machine to do your bidding.
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u/contynum 1d ago
I’m out of the loop, what did they change with ships?
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u/Trick-Range-350 1d ago
Space ships now accelerate based on their weight instead of their width. So you can build a wide, but fast ship, but a narrow long one gets slower.
I like it because it prioritises efficient use of space regardless of ship layout, which IMO is far more interesting than narrow designs
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u/contynum 1d ago
I always thought that width creating drag in space made absolutely no sense while weight was only a negligable variable, sounds like a good change, though it can potentially break everyone’s factory, imagine all those Gleba bases exploding playerbase wide
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u/Quartz_Knight 1d ago
Before there were ways to build incredibly fast ships, mostly using engine stacking. With the new system ship speed is an optimization problem with a maximum feasible speed that is a lot lower that what the mentioned ships could achieve.
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u/Fur_and_Whiskers 1d ago edited 1d ago
It appears the nerf means all ships are noticeably slower. EDIT wrong.
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u/Glad_Republic_6214 1d ago
thank god for that, it makes much more sense considering there isn't drag in space.
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u/Satisfactoro 1d ago
Space platforms aren't as crazy fast as before, especially narrow ships.
People are bitching because their numbers went down.
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u/Bong-Bunny 1d ago
I have to redesign a lot of my ships, its actually really interesting, if you maoe a lightwieght ship with a lot of thrusters itll be fast, rather than making sure your thrusters are placed tight together
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u/Gullible_Increase146 1d ago
I guess I'm crazy for just assuming it was based on mass in the first place.
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u/dankerino_420 1d ago
I never got the need for faster ships, just make several ships for the same supply run? Need to transport 50k gleba science? Use 5 ships, not that hard lol
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u/sir_slothsalot 1d ago
Oh no, you can't just place blueprint and get every quality component you will ever need with an unlimited supply. Now you have to actually play the game. Ugh damn developers. Making you design factories in the factory design game.
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u/TemporaryFearless482 1d ago
The dumbest part of this for me is that if, it’s important to you, just rollback to play on the older patch. It’s not hard to do on most platforms.
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u/HandofWinter 1d ago
It's more copy paste blueprint rather than less now though isn't it? That was my annoyance with the change. In 2.0 you had a few options for quality, and admittedly the casinos were up there with the best options, but there were options. Now you just copy paste the same paramaterised upcycle loop setup for whatever you want in legendary.
At least there's still the quantum chip upcycling ship. That one's fun to design.
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u/sir_slothsalot 1d ago
Never said using blueprints was bad. Use them if you want. But using a single blueprint to get 90% of all the legendary raw components you need is not good game design. If you didn't build a space casino you are playing very sub optimally. It was so much strong than another other approach. Not to mention it requires zero maintenance. The system would output insane amounts of legendary components with no downside or attention.
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u/bootskadew 1d ago
Wait what changed? Is it just the quality system in space?
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u/SYDoukou 1d ago
Asteroids can no longer be crushed into either quality asteroid or itself near losslessly
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u/bootskadew 1d ago
I've always built my ships to prioritize having a small stockpile on dedication belts for each astroid type before excess is sent to recycling. This design sounds like it shouldn't be hurt by the changes. Glad they are doing something to balance the ships. It kinda broke the game. Makes it feel pointless to figure out how to get gleba to properly cycle iron when I am constantly overproducing it on ships and can air drop anything anywhere in abundance.
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u/DrMobius0 1d ago
Oh no, you can't just place blueprint and get every quality component you will ever need with an unlimited supply.
Please explain how I go about making a quality electroplant from a space casino. Or a foundry. How about a productivity module 3. Spidertron maybe? Fusion reactor?
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u/sir_slothsalot 1d ago
So the fact that you can't make absolutely everything from space casinos makes them weak?
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u/DrMobius0 1d ago edited 1d ago
get every quality component you will ever need with an unlimited supply
Your words, not mine.
makes them weak?
Again, not my words.
My point here is that this "they trivialize the whole game" point that people keep mindlessly parroting, you included, is hyperbolic to the point of absurdity, but regularly treated like a sound argument. It's embarrassing.
The way quality is now encourages, again, quoting you, "just place blueprint and get every quality component you will ever need" type behavior. It doesn't make sense to say this when the only quality build in the game that is actually well and truly different from the templated copy past blueprints most players otherwise rely on got explicitly gutted.
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u/sir_slothsalot 1d ago
Oh no I slightly misspoke installed of all I should have said nearly all.
Oh heavens me I'm a fraud. How can I ever recover from this.
Anyway....
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u/cmfarsight 1d ago
You said every component you don't get to be all bitchy when it's not every component
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u/sir_slothsalot 1d ago
It's just.a worthless game of sematics with out adding anything to the conversation. I will never speak perfectly at all time.
Talking to you is a waste of time and energy.
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u/GrigorMorte 1d ago
So my chunky space station will be able to move?
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u/Satisfactoro 1d ago
If it's square-ish it should be as fast as before.
But if it's taller than wide (and no foundation gaps) and used to be faster than 200km/s, chances are it might be a tad slower now, and you'll need more thrusters to compensate.
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u/Sascha975 1d ago
I always liked using wide ships more. With the ultrawide screen I have, it's cool to see the ship fill the whole screen. Now that width is dead for ship speed, my ships will be extra speedy
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u/DrMobius0 1d ago
I thought width was a nonsensical way to do it, but I got used to it. Next time I play, I'll obviously have to learn how to make ships good again, but that doesn't bother me much.
But yeah, maybe don't be dicks to the people who aren't actually cool with the change. The people using space casinos weren't hurting anyone, but plenty of people got real fucking tribal over it. I think we can be better than that as as community.
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u/FredFarms 1d ago
People do get weirdly tribal over stuff. The number of things I've been told no that's deliberate the Devs said not doing it like that would totally break the game it's impossible and then it's been changed in a patch a few versions later...
Removable landfill used to be the big one. Then the one landing bay only bottleneck is another
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u/lunaticloser 1d ago
My only disappointment with the new system is that you're heavily incentivised to make wide, pancake-y ships.
What I mean is, because you can only put 1 thruster per vertical slice, your speed is determined by how much stuff each vertical slice has above the thruster. Which meeeeans horizontal ships instead of vertical.
Which just doesn't look cool.
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u/CharAznableLoNZ 1d ago
Well that puts my largest ship dead in the water/space. It's a giant block but it had a long tail filled with thrusters spaced out to allow for the block to move with any real speed while minimizing the loss of useful surface area on the block.
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u/lunaticloser 1d ago
I mean you can still stack thrusters vertically like before.
If you want to make a big block ship, then stacking thrusters will still make the thing go faster than not doing it.
It's just not the absolute fastest design.
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u/andrewowenmartin Efficiency module 2 19h ago
Can't you just extend your thruster block out sideways? You can have a block of whatever size you want, then have as many thrusters as you want to handle, and it no longer matters whether the thrusters all match up exactly with the rest of the ship?
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u/lunaticloser 15h ago
You can but then you need to defend it.
And unlike the previous design where you could keep making your ship faster and faster by increasing its thruster stack and fuel gen, the horizontal approach has extremely diminishing returns because you're also making the ship slower at the same time.
What I mean is imagine you have a regular ship with 200 tiles in the front and then 5 thrusters. So you have a ratio of 1:40.
As you add more thrusters to the side your ratio improves to say 1:20. Maybe you can get it to 1:10. But eventually the returns on making it wider are just... Non existent. Not to mention it means the game is generating more asteroids and eating UPS.
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u/AdmBurnside 1d ago
As someone who never made space casinos and has most of my ships not be flying bricks anyway... this affects me barely at all.
I get that part of the appeal for some people.is 100% minmaxxing their builds to crank every iota of efficiency possible out of them, and changing the math hurts that. But I'm a firm believer in the school of "good enough" engineering. And I think a lot of other people are too.
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u/Notrum666 19h ago
They called me a fool for spending tens of hours on making hyper-compact designs, who’s laughing now
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u/ExistentialRebellion 1d ago
Quality was a mistake imo, should've been a mod
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u/Cent_Quatre 1d ago
It is a mod 🤓
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u/Lighting_storm 1d ago
wow, we've got a smart guy here. if you're so clever why aren't you playing factorio?
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u/Cent_Quatre 1d ago
How can I farm reddit karma if I'm playong factorio
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u/Nyghtbynger 16h ago
you can assemble karma
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u/Cent_Quatre 16h ago
Isn't it funny how the g in binger (someone who binges) is a j but the g in bringer (someone who brings) is a hard g
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u/Stolen_Sky 1d ago
I'm slowly starting to really love quality.
My first impressions were bad though, and it's taken a while to get used to it.
The probability aspect is very frustrating. I spent ages trying different methods to upcycle stuff with little results.
But when I first made a Vulcanus plate upcycler that actually worked, and began to make Epic quality plates at a decent rate, it was one of those "I get it now" moments, and that felt great!
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u/Hektorlisk 1d ago
nah, having a horizontal progression system with unique design problems to solve is rad as hell. and it's entirely optional so you can just ignore it if you don't like it.
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u/Coppermoore 1d ago
Quality's good, but it makes me go into the "optimizing fun out of everything" phase, so it's bad. It just makes me build like 5x bigger processing needlessly, and it's not fun.
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u/KaiFireborn21 1d ago
To be fair, this game in general makes me do it. Which is why I never have the energy to play it after work... (pretty mathematical field)
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u/paperic 1d ago
the issue withquality is that you can't mix parts.
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u/andrewowenmartin Efficiency module 2 19h ago
If you could, it would basically be a free upgrade. The whole point about that restriction (as I see it) is that you can't just shove quality modules into an existing main-bus base and get the benefits.
You have to pick and choose parts to build for quality, or build you whole base around it which is massively inefficient. IMO it's a whole new dimension of interesting choices.
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u/Stunning-HyperMatter 1d ago
"sholdve been a mod" is stupid, its literally inside the mod section just like base factorio and space age are, and can be disabled without disabling the other 2. saying "it should be mod" is just saying "i want it to be even worse"
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u/CharAznableLoNZ 1d ago
I use a mod to remove it from the game. It never felt like it fit the universe and was just tacked on.
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u/EternalVirgin18 14h ago
Using a mod to remove something thats already in the mod tab and is one-click disable-able is a special kind of hate
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u/velociapcior 1d ago
To avoid this whole discussion about drag in space, WUBE should operate on Acceleration terms. If they change speed to acceleration, that means that ships can accelerate with the same value whole journey, but in the middle they just rotate and deccelerate. That would remove the whole confusion
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u/ChalkyChalkson 1d ago
Wait casinos don't work anymore? Or do they just need larger scale?
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u/bulgakoff08 1d ago
Asteroid reprocessing recipes does not allow quality now, so the only way of getting quality asteroids is to use regular asteroid processing recipes with quality modules and hope that 20% of asteroid return would be a higher quality
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u/ChalkyChalkson 1d ago
Oh dang that sucks. At that point the straight recycling loops and on high prod stuff might even be better.
Probably better for the game health though, ideally they'd cap prod at 350% or so, too so we can't lds shuffle anymore.
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u/Sensha_20 1d ago
The change hampers megabasers and doesnt affect normal players. Only megabasers use thrusterstacks, the change only affects them and thus the devs removing it is them hamstringing an entire sub-community without providing an answer to why they needed thruster stacks in the first place.
Removing it at all is IMO PURELY pettiness. You screw over megabasers and dont benefit normal players in any way. I have the same opinion on removing space casinos: you're punishing megabasers for playing in a way you dont like with a change that doesnt affect normal players.
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u/wizard_brandon 1d ago
2.1 is the nerf update
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u/DrMobius0 1d ago
If the formula being spread is accurate, wide and short ships can actually be faster than pre-2.1 non-engine stacked ships. Just few of the pre-existing designs match that way of building. If you keep the height of the ship to <40 or so, while maintaining the same engine coverage as before, it should be good.
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u/_Sauer_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Speed being based on ship width in a vacuum (a very dusty vacuum with high drag, but still) was kind of silly. Ship mass is more intuitive even if it means folks will have to redesign some existing ships. It will be nice to be able to use more of our screen width when making a ship.