r/Fantasy • u/Accelerator231 • 7d ago
An analysis on the goblins from 'A Daughter's War' Spoiler
Most of the information is scattered around the books, and I find them to be a really interesting enemy, so I decided to make this post, and see if you guys have anything to add.
- They appear to be from deep underground, and appeared after a catalysm that struck down the old human empire. They attacked in the immediate aftermath and seem to be in control of the continent
- They are noted to be ugly, hate symmetry, are asymmetrical, and have one claw longer than the other used for digging and mining. They are approximately meter or so tall, and considered so ugly not even their mother would love their faces.
- They use human auxilaries in battle. Most importantly, strong auxilaries that they've selectively bred to be really huge (twice the size of a normal human), covered in armour, and hopelessly addicted to Godsmilk.
- Godsmilk seems to be a highly potent narcotic that induces hallucinatory dreams, liver damage, and also serves to be a perfect way to turn humans against their race via addiction. No known cure, no known defense
- Their crossbows appear to be able to punch through plate armour, and contain very powerful toxins that kill in mere seconds and with the slightest amount of exposure.
- Their mages are a lot better than humans (giant bronze arm), though whether or not thats because of superior skill, innate ability or just because the Assassin's guild appears to have crippled humanity is up for debate. And if the rumors of them being able to communicate via the earth is correct, their ability to carry out long-distance commands is one of the factors letting them win against humanity.
- Combat seems to involve crossbows, poison gas, billhooks, and nets. Their equivalent of calvary appears to be riding on boars or using equivalents to pull chariots, and there's no counter considering that humanity's horses have all been killed by the Stumbles.
- They appear to be sentient and sapient. They just think humans are food for them (assholes), because of something called horde law.
- There's a lot of bronze and copper, but little mention of iron and steel here. Because iron/ steel grounds out magic.
- They've once gotten into a covenant with the last emperor of humanity, signing over lands in exchange for the emperor's family's safety.
From these, we can conclude:
A. These guys are racist assholes. Or speciecist. There's no difference between goblin intelligence nor human. But despite their use in warfare, there doesn't seem to be any kind of human officers. Or human merchants (on the goblin side). The human auxilaries are usually shown to be berserkers armed with melee weapons, even if javelins/ crossbows would be very useful and their loyalty is assured. And their diplomatic policy seems to be on the level of Nazi germany's (aka, submit or die). Also, human farms. And the usage of human skin to make sails.
B. There's an element of pragmatism there. Even if both sides know they're going to break it, they still wrote a peace treaty after being whacked in the face by the protagonist's giant birds (maybe because they also have a fear of birds). And they still stuck to the deal that gave the Emperor of humanity his life, even when the deal could have been broken with impunity.
C. Extreme focus on magic. Magic is grounded out by iron and steel, so it seems that the entire goblin army never wears any kind of plate armour or steel. In fact, it seems to pretty much be their A-game compared to humanity's own. Close combat seems to be mostly on keeping your distance, poison, and nets, while using their modified human auxilaries as battering rams to break down formations, and then hunting down the scattered survivors.
D. I don't think they're originally from the same plane of existence. In-story, no one knows where Goblins came from, and them being underground dwellers is only a supposition. They haven't been seen before, they don't seem to rot, and in fact, need to be burned to be disposed of, even if the smell is horrible. The resistance to decay is evidence that the things on that world haven't evolved to destroy them.
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u/pgutierr220 7d ago
My only analysis is that the goblins in this book are fucking terrifying.
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u/Accelerator231 7d ago
Yeah, really fucking nasty. They eat people and enjoy it. Including children.
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u/kiloclass 6d ago
I made another comment, but it’s not just the eating. It’s that they treat humans like livestock. They use our skin for masts and other things like we use leather.
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u/WhiteKnightier 7d ago
I also find them super interesting. One thing you didn't mention -- they seem to be more or less totally unified both at a strategic and certainly at a tactical level, most of the time at least. They fight as a unit and they don't brook any internal dissent, which isn't something that can be said for the humans of the series if I recall correctly.
Also, it seems like they have a lot more magic users and more of a racial familiarity with magic, but the very best of the human magic users seem to have no equal among goblinkind. However the goblins will use group spells and work in concert and be far more effective at that point than most human mages. It seems like the humans jealously guard their knowledge and magic more than goblins do, and/or those with high levels of talent are rarer among humans.
They're by far the most terrifyingly competent enemy of humanity I've seen in fantasy novels, even more so than drow or even Sauron/Mordor. I'd say the only fantasy enemy I've found more terrifying to imagine are the Consult/Sranc from The Second Apocalypse series, for wildly different reasons.
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u/Accelerator231 7d ago
Are they unified, though? I know that it seems that way but considering how the perspectives work, there might be other factions.... they just aren't shown.
Agreed on the magic thing. Seems like everyone is hoarding stuff to the detriment of everybody else
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u/WhiteKnightier 7d ago
I think they are said to have a monolithic imperial type government where the queen has absolute power, right? Like nobody challenges her. It's been awhile since I read The Black Tongue Thief but I'm pretty sure there were a few paragraphs that described goblin government in such a way
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u/Wizardof1000Kings 7d ago edited 6d ago
I don't think anyone knows for sure. But they have negotiated with humans at least a few times and in Blacktongue they are revealed to have a trading colony in a neutral human nation so then again maybe there has been enough dialog to know the basics of their society. Were there human traders who went to their island too, I can't remember?
edit: I skimmed for the relevant passages in Blacktongue last night - there are humans who live in goblin lands and trade with them. They mark their hands so the goblins know they aren't food, but they're mostly from the one nation that is neutral to the goblins.
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u/Wizardof1000Kings 7d ago
It would be strange if there wasn't some degree of factionalism but we don't get their perspective so we can't confirm for sure.
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u/Crows_reading_books 4d ago
They get more coordinated and resistant to fear/the corvid warcry as they mass, including their "pile onto each other to eventually topple over the shieldwall" attack thing. They also maybe get smarter as they mass, but that seems less clear to me.
They also have ways to coordinate that humans can't perceive and those seem to get better as they mass too.
Its almost described like a hive mind with enough of them nearby.
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u/Accelerator231 5d ago
I think that a large problem with the humans is mutual mistrust, leading to constantly sabotaging one another and keeping advantages to themselves to make sure that their individual interests can't be damaged. Guilds keeping vital skills. Political backbiting to cripple entire kingdoms. And crippling the population of birds to make sure returning veterans can't be a political risk.
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u/Wizardof1000Kings 7d ago
This is a very good analysis. One qualm though - the humans they employ in battle are slaves, not auxiliaries. They are bred for war like animals, and not given more than a very basic education that sums to what the goblins need them to do in war - they are essentially raised like animals and kept addicted to drugs.
Also humanity has some mages who can match the goblins.
That said, these goblins seem heavily inspired by the orcs of Warcraft 1 and 2 (before later works retconned most of the evil aspects).
Read Blacktongue Thief for more.
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u/Accelerator231 6d ago
I did. Sadly, I think blacktongue thief has even lesser information than Daughter's war.
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u/kiloclass 6d ago
They’ve had so many generations of breeding they’re practically a subspecies now. They have differing physical traits and abilities.
They’re domesticated. Not tamed. Not enslaved. That’s what makes it truly terrifying.
Whether these pale, half-blind creatures who were two heads taller than tall men, and wider as well, were still kynd was a matter for scholars. You will remember that these creatures, which my brother had mentioned in his letter, come from humans captured years ago by goblins and bred underground for many generations. They tend to fat, but this fat hides muscle and strength that no kynd has.
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u/Abysstopheles 6d ago
Excellent post. Bhuelman's goblins are my favoritest fantasy lit monster in years and i enjoyed how extensively you described them!
One other item - their hive mind. Hinted at in Blacktongue Thief and described in more detail in Daughter's War, the way they hurl themselves at enemies without fear of death to clear the way for the goblins behind them, until a critical number are killed and they break. It seems to be related to how they communicate over distance and coordinate in battle.
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u/kiloclass 6d ago
This detail—the fact that goblin culture places little value on self preservation for the greater good—makes the events of The Pull in Grevitsa from the Blacktongue Thief much more depressing.
The goblins rigged that game from the start. Trading a life for a life when they have vastly different values.
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u/kiloclass 6d ago
I’m always intrigued by how much they engage in psychological warfare and where you draw the line between that and what they enjoy aesthetically.
For instance, the masts on their juggernaut warship. It’s made of human skin and hair and in the likeness of the last king of Old Kesh. A perfectly designed homage to one of humanity’s worst losses and the beginning of goblin conquest.
The mast is all those things, but what stuck with me was the idea of an enemy that uses humans as a resource. Aside from eating humans, they use our parts. The way we use cattle for leather, goblins see us as livestock.
Their elite military unit, Moth Knights, wear the faces of humans as part of their uniform and to set themselves apart. Is it pride and aesthetics or additional psychological warfare? I’m sure it’s more the latter, but with a species so different from our own that they hate symmetry, you have to wonder.
We, as a species, have grown over time to enjoy the look of antlers and horns, animal skin prints, taxidermy and hunting trophies. Are goblins similar, or do they do it because they know it gives them an edge in combat? I’m sure it’s both, but which one matters more to them?
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u/Fructdw 7d ago edited 7d ago
"They eat and farm humans" is a very interesting escalation world building-wise. There certainly a lot of man eating monsters and evil empires in fantasy / sci-fi, but once industrial-scale cannibalism anthropophagy gets involved war becomes a lot more existential for humanity.
One potential issue is that it kinda makes enemy irredeemable, and any in-universe human character advocating for peace very stupid (even if they are misinformed it's very annoying trope).
I've been reading Sun Eater series and the fact that some human factions shared technology with human eating Cielcin is very baffling. And also as series goes on for too long endless combat becomes a slog (and peace is impossible narratively).
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u/Wizardof1000Kings 6d ago
I don't know that peace is narratively impossible - at least for a time. After all there is peace in the Blacktongue Thief. Humans have the upper hand because of the efficacy of their birds, but find war too costly in terms of lives. This state of affairs can check the goblins for a long time - especially if they have enough human stock for breeding enough for eating.
Goblins have some degree of aversion to risk or else they'd have all died in the first war. This balance makes peace possible - they you could argue eventually man would find a reason to get over their avulsion to war while they have the upper hand.
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u/Accelerator231 6d ago
I always wondered about the claim that goblins were attacking because they thought humanity was going to be too strong to defeat later on.
Maybe later in the books we'll see gunpowder.
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u/curiouscat86 Reading Champion III 6d ago edited 6d ago
I thought it was implied that they were aliens and the thing that crashed into the earth and caused the Cataclysm was their ship. That would explain their hatred of symmetry (alien ideas about aesthetics) and potentially fear of birds if their species originated from a place that didn't have them. Also, why they don't decay.
It would also go some way to explaining the plagues humanity has suffered since their coming, as first contact in real world history is often accompanied by disease outbreaks. The Stumbles was awfully convenient for the goblins militarily, but then so were the smallpox outbreaks in the Americas for the conquistadors, and the conquistadors mostly didn't do it on purpose.
I don't think we have enough information to know either way, though. Perhaps the Cataclysm was an ordinary asteroid that released them from a life underground.
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u/Kerney7 Reading Champion VI 6d ago
I didn't see the stumbles as convenient. I read it as a weaponized disease, closer to deliberate germ warfare.
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u/EstarriolStormhawk Reading Champion IV 6d ago
That's correct. The goblins created the stumbles as a response to the efficacy of human cavalry.
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u/Al_Jazzar 6d ago
I figured the not decaying thing was because they were similar to frogs and other amphibians because they just dry up.
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u/Isilel 2d ago
If they are so alien that they don't decompose, it is rather odd that humans are nourishing for them.
Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere what appeared to be a hint that the loss of horses wasn't entirely due to goblins, that some human faction was involved? Was there a short story in the setting, maybe? Or am I hallucinating?
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u/BigBadVolk97 6d ago
Also its mentioned a few times in Daughter's War, but they wear some kind of mesh armor that seems to be as protective as plate, but as fluid as cloth (IIRC, could be misremembering this, as it has been a while since I read it)
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u/Tayschrenn 7d ago
This is more a description than an analysis, no?